Renzatic on 18/7/2013 at 13:55
Quote Posted by DDL
"I feel threatened!" *Blam*
...is apparently ok, though?
That about sums up Stand Your Ground. It reminds me of two stories from Texas that piss me off to no end...
One: Old crotchety dude who apparently hates the world thinks his neighbors, who are celebrating something or other, are being too loud. He does the most logical thing by grabbing his gun, marching over there, and DEMANDING they shut the hell up while waving the damn thing around in their faces. This pisses the neighbors off a bit. They're a little drunk, and, being Texas, are equally armed. Things get threatening, and crotchety old man pulls his gun out and fires, killing one of the celebrators.
Charges? None. He Stood His Ground. Even though it was a situation he created, and where he was the initial threat. That should be at least manslaughter.
Next one. Guy hires an escort for a night of gettin' some. Woman decides she doesn't want to put out, but also decides to keep the guys money. Despite being no threat to him, he pulls his gun out and shoots the woman in the neck. She dies.
Charges? None. He Stood His Ground. The reason? She was "robbing" him. The first weird thing about this is that SYG isn't supposed to be declarable during a criminal act, which I'm pretty sure hiring a prostitute would be in Texas. Secondly, she was no direct threat to him. All she did was slap him away when he grabbed her. Why this didn't result in a murder charge is totally and completely beyond me.
Now I'm all about the right to self defense. It's a grim necessity. The thing about SYG is that it doesn't expand upon self defense, so much as creates a situation where grievances can be aired through violent means. Hell, you could orchestrate a murder just by taking someone you don't like, riling them up, then shooting them in the head. All you have to do is claim he became violent, and you were exercising your right not to flee from a dangerous situation.
It's a law that does not work. Plain and simple. It doesn't do anything to maintain order or punish people who allow a situation to get out of hand. Quite the opposite. It creates a legal precedence for high noon showdowns.
Queue on 18/7/2013 at 13:55
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
What should Martin be allowed to do? It takes two to tango remember.
Was Martin being attacked?
Here's a good one, Renz: (
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/17/video-shows-white-milwaukee-man-shooting-black-teen-as-mother-watched/) http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/17/video-shows-white-milwaukee-man-shooting-black-teen-as-mother-watched/
Now that's lunacy!
(And btw, I totally agree with you--SYG is very much flawed, and creates a Wild West attitude in too many people who are utter lunatics.)
DDL on 18/7/2013 at 14:00
I'm quite amazed that Jason Moyer wouldn't feel bad killing someone for breaking his nose.
Wait, no. I'm terrified.
Seriously? Taking a life is a hell of a thing.
Queue on 18/7/2013 at 14:05
Now, if I could slip into character for a few seconds:
I don't know why Zimmerman wasted a bullet on Martin. Doesn't he know how hard it is to buy bullets?!
(
http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/feds-admit-drying-up-ammo-supplies/) http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/feds-admit-drying-up-ammo-supplies/
I had a helluva time finding .22 ammo...$100 a brick for ammo that's 30-years-old out of someone's basement! Fucking rabbits can just eat my greens at that price.
Zimmerman should have just clubbed him with a rock--no gun issue, then.
Jason Moyer on 18/7/2013 at 14:06
If you hit me you deserve whatever you get. I don't own/carry a firearm, and I prefer incapacitating someone to injuring them, but if you catch me on a bad day and I break your neck it's your own fault for being a fucking thug. There is nothing in the world that justifies physical violence, and imho any response to physical violence is justified. Of course, if my life isn't threatened then I'd prefer to be the better man and not overreact, but if you're on top of me punching me in the head and slamming my head against the ground I'm going to do whatever I can to avoid becoming another Bryan Stow.
Edit: Yeah, Queue, it's been basically impossible to buy non-shotgun ammo anywhere for several months now. I dunno if I've seen a real explanation for that aside from the usual tinfoil "OBAMA'S BUYIN UP ALL TEH BULLETS" nonsense.
Renzatic on 18/7/2013 at 14:09
Quote Posted by Queue
Was Martin being attacked?
He could've been scared, fighting back against some crazy looking stranger who decided to jump out of his car and grab him on his way home from the store.
Or he could've been a little bastard dipshit teenager with more hormones than common sense, who decided to jump Z because he thought he could take him.
...we'll never know.
I've seen it. You know, I can think of so many pros and cons to the Great Gun Debate that I honestly can't make a final stance on the issue. People like that guy make me think we might just be a little better off without them around.
There are far too many people out there who think of a gun more as a justifier, less as a means of self defense.
Queue on 18/7/2013 at 14:15
I agree with DDL, taking a life is fucked up. But, at the same time, as Jason has said, allowing your life to be taken by a thug because you don't believe in violence is equally fucked up--and says a lot about the social conditioning we all are being put through.
Exactly, Renz. We don't know.
(edit) Jason, I don't get the whole Obama's buying the bullets bullshit. It's the nut jobs worried about Obama buying up the bullets who are buying up all the bullets and creating a shortage.
DDL on 18/7/2013 at 14:16
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
If you hit me you deserve whatever you get. I don't own/carry a firearm, and I prefer incapacitating someone to injuring them, but if you catch me on a bad day and I break your neck it's your own fault for being a fucking thug.
This mindset pretty much boils down to "being a bit of a dick is a capital offense in MOYERTOWN, BABY", though (less so after your edit, admittedly). And I don't think that should ever be something that is also reflected in the law.
Especially if it opens the door to allowing someone to goad another person into crossing the dickishness threshold just so they can kill them, which it very much seems it does.
Escalation almost never works out well, and this law pretty much encourages a fast-track from "any aggressive situation" straight to "GUN TIEM!"
jay pettitt on 18/7/2013 at 14:24
Quote Posted by Queue
Was Martin being attacked?
You tell me. I'm oddly not interested in trying to find Zimmerman or Martin guilty or otherwise via the internet.
But I certainly don't think there's compelling reason to think Zimmerman asked Martin whether he was having a nice evening immediately followed by Martin slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground. There's a whole section of events that we're missing.
But lack of information is not a good reason to right something off as 'probably just one of those unavoidable things' when someone has shot and killed a kid. That's a scenario where society should want to find out what happened, and if it can't find out, it should know why not.
Jason Moyer on 18/7/2013 at 14:26
Hitting someone is beyond being a dick. The world is full of dicks (shut up) and that doesn't mean you can go around slugging people. I've had someone "profile" me because I'm a Jeff Bridges-looking scraggly motherfucker (thanks Dethy) who walks several miles every day with a backpack, accusing me of stealing his mail, and while I could have felt threatened and beaten the shit out of him I dealt with the situation diplomatically. I've had a woman open a gash in my thigh that covered my entire leg with blood, and my reaction was shaking my head and calling her a stupid whore (because, frankly, some people just are stupid whores). If someone punches me in the face repeatedly or continues to try to despite my warnings to calm the fuck down, they deserve what they get. Period.
