klatremus on 11/2/2021 at 23:20
But can't both of them be key terms, marbleman? They are both in the rule, so they are both contributing to the rule's intention. It is clear that the original makers intended for it only to be during the pre-game store, but not to include any other transaction-like events going on during the mission, whether it be an in-game store or otherwise. Secondly, it is focusing on purchases, those you would make by going to an actual store or interacting with a business man of sorts. That's why I think I agree with Galaer and Peter Smith now, that Supreme should allow free items, but the whole rule is only referring to the loadout screen, no other situations.
@Peter: I agree that the sentence you are referring to is pointless, at least it doesn't provide any additional information that is helpful in discerning what is allowed or not. It does provide us with the principle behind the rule though, but other than that it's not very useful.
smithpd on 11/2/2021 at 23:55
@marbleman,
I agree with klatremus' response, immediately above. I was referring to "purchase" as key because "purchase" (in the store) is the only action that is disallowed in that sentence.
Cigam on 12/2/2021 at 00:18
Are there any free loadout items in the OMs? If there is not, then I would interpret the use of the term "pirchase" as just being a product of the rules being written in a context where paying was all they knew. Rather than it having special significance and importance in and of itself.
If the OMs had had optional free potions and water arrows, I have a feeling that a different term would have been used.
Just an opinion obviously, but I can't think of a reason why whether the optional advantages cost money or not would matter. Whether you are creating the rule from the perspective of simply making gameplay harder. Or from the perspective of restricting player actions to be in accordance with how you think a ghost thief would behave.
Galaer on 12/2/2021 at 09:24
So my understanding of smithpd comment is - you can buy request in order to have complete experience. No idea if it also touches requests for which you need to spend money. Also not long ago was discussion about floating golden skull and it was allowed taking it, because it is special mechanic implemented by author. Sure, for supreme skull can't be taken, because it emits light, but that's different story. The thing is that buying readables triggering new objectives in loadout store is also special mechanic created by author. He/she expects player to buy it to have complete experience with mission.
Starker on 12/2/2021 at 13:10
How about "You cannot acquire equipment that aids ghosting from either the loading screen or in-game shops."?
Because that is what the original rule is meant to prevent, right? People buying extra rope arrows or scouting orbs or whatever could aid them. As for other items that don't help you, rule 13 should take care of that. That only leaves items that are needed for the mission, whether purchased or not.
klatremus on 12/2/2021 at 23:19
@Galaer: No, Peter Smith did not say you could buy anything from the loadout screen, even if it gives you a more complete experience. He was talking about free items that do so.
@Cigam & Starker: The Supreme rules were written and released in 2002. I'm not sure if there were free items available in fan missions up until that point, but someone else who have played all the fms and remember can feel free to chime in there. I do know however that there were fan missions (Calendra's Cistern from 2000 for example) that did use in-game stores, so that was definitely well known. Since Sneak and Clayman made sure to formulate the rule to include the words "store at loadout", to me it is pretty clear that they did not intend to include any other types of stores. If the rule meant to prevent in-game shops or free items, to me it's likely that the rule would already include wording of such.
I suggest the following clarification to Supreme rule #5:
Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. This thief doesn’t even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.
This is not a change to the rule, but as stated above, a clarification. This is in order to avoid prior reports from being invalidated. Let me know your thoughts.
Galaer on 13/2/2021 at 15:13
@klatremus: I'm talking about bolded sentence:
Quote Posted by smithpd
One possible sticking point is that an item may change the objectives. To me, that is a separate issue from the loadout store and whether the items is in initial inventory or found in game. In any case, you can frob the item or not, thus changing the objectives or not.
My personal preference is to take such items and deal with the changed objectives. That way, you get to play the complete mission. To me, the idea of saying that the changed objectives impedes or prevents ghosting and then going back (reloading) and refusing to take the item is a bit artificial. Still, I would regard that as a personal choice and not covered by any rule, unless I missed a rule somewhere.
Of course, smithpd is talking about free items. But it feels that this last comment is about all items giving new objectives. And simply, not buying objective for money just because spending money is a bust, feels like artificial barrier for supreme ghosters like you, klatremus. You will not manage to play these few FMs on absolutely the hardest difficulty, because it's a bust.
klatremus on 13/2/2021 at 15:47
Oh so you think items that trigger objectives should be allowed even though they cost money? I understand your point, but that would clearly go against that rule's original intent. The makers clearly knew about such items as they are part of OMs. Yes it limits Supreme, but you can still choose to buy them and take the bust and try to finish the rest without more busts.
Galaer on 13/2/2021 at 16:13
Quote Posted by klatremus
The makers clearly knew about such items as they are part of OMs.
No, they aren't. There is no single request in loadout store in any OM that gives new objective. Lost City Contract doesn't give you any objective. I doubt FM makers know perfectly well what are supreme ghost rules. And I'm saying that it limits Supreme Ghost in the very stupid and artificial way. So yes, I think it should be allowed to buy objectives in loadout store for money. By the way, there is no rule about spending money. You can do that in in-game stores, because you can avoid alert. But in loadout store there is also no visible alert from shopkeeper. I think I agree more with Starker about this matter to prevent buying equipment in no matter what shop: loadout or inside mission. Also buying request can't be used as a tool to make supreme ghosting easier.
klatremus on 13/2/2021 at 16:23
I stand corrected on the objective changing items in OMs, I forgot it only changed loot amount. But there are FMs that trigger objectives that can be purchased, and I guarantee you Sneak and Clayman who wrote the rules knew about those gameplay mechanics.
There are many artifical elements in both sets of ghost rules, so that is not what decides which rules stand or not. We are not changing the rule to suddenly now allow purchases, whether they change objectives or not. What we are looking to do is clarifying the rule, specifying whether the rule as it currently is includes free items and also if it includes in-game purchases. My arguments from post #286 thus stand.
