ultravioletu on 14/2/2021 at 10:35
Quote Posted by klatremus
I pulled out an old walkthrough/ghost report of Sneak's for Calendra's Legacy to see if it was the same as the report linked to in the Ghost Report thread, and it is not! In his write-up for Mission 3 from May 10th 2002 he writes: "Literally the no purchases rule applies only to weapons, ammunition and potions but I clicked right through it.".
Well, wouldn't it be sensitive to clarify the rule with exactly this addition? The quote illustrates what
sneak intended, and it's perhaps the actual
wording of the rule that doesn't reflect that entirely.
Galaer on 14/2/2021 at 10:47
@marbleman: crate isn't any pickup (it doesn't go into your inventory) and you can return it to it's original place. On the other hand rope arrow is unnecessary pickup that you also can't return back to it's chest. Also if you say that there is no need to grab this extra loot (I also mentioned that in my post), then why are you grabbing rope arrow to get it? Skipping it would be more in supreme ghost spirit.
ultravioletu on 14/2/2021 at 10:50
Quote Posted by marbleman
In fact, a lot of loot is unnecesarry. You don't
need to pick it up to complete the mission, so why do it then?
Yes, judging strictly, one should stop as soon as the loot requirement is met. :p Don't we have a variation that requires that?
And, for the extra challenge, pick up only those pieces of loot that sum up
exactly to the loot requirement :)
Galaer on 14/2/2021 at 11:01
@klatremus: Sorry, I read carefully mentioned by you paragraph and looks like he understood this rule in the same way you originally mentioned. Just before quoted sentence he mentions that you can't buy non-loot items in loadout store. After quoted sentence he says that this is the reason for not buying Skeleton key and Garrett's Tip.
Starker on 14/2/2021 at 12:47
Quote Posted by marbleman
@Starker: Well, if someone comes back and sees all the gold missing from their house, they would think the same.
Yes, but that is the one big contradiction to the whole ghosting premise, isn't it? That one of the major objectives in the game defeats all the point of leaving the place in a state as if you had never been there. Therefore the ghosting rules explicitly allow stealing items while placing restrictions to other activities and supreme ghost restricts these activities further for additional challenge.
Quote:
The principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen.
However, while stealing is a very common objective in both the OMs and FMs, deactivating traps is not. It might sometimes be necessary to achieve other objectives, but that's a separate
issue.
Quote Posted by marbleman
I don't agree with all the rules and interpretations myself, guys, but if there's something I understood from all these discussions is that you shouldn't think of them in absolute terms. Otherwise, your options for what you actually can do for Supreme will be meager, and the point of all ghosting playstyles is still to have fun with the game, not the most hardcorest experience possible.
Isn't supreme ghost meant to be that, though? An extra hard challenge, not just a different flavour of ghosting? It already contains some tedious things like having to reshut all doors, putting back all items, etc, all in the service of its premise.
Quote:
This Thief is the absolute best there is. He is faceless, he could be anyone. No one has ever gotten a fingerprint, a footprint, not even a whiff of him. Even the Keepers are oblivious to him. He carries out his work with meticulous detail, leaves no evidence at all that he was there. He has quite a large self image but cares nothing about gaining a reputation. In fact, he wants to remain anonymous. But at the same time, he enters a mission with a heightened sense of paranoia. Nothing can go wrong, he will settle for no error or slip ups in his execution of the job. He is a Paranoid Perfectionist while working, nothing out of place or amiss when he is finished. Not even the Allusion of a Thought in anyone's mind that he was there. He is also discriminating. Some missions he might not take because he might leave a trail, clue or hint of something. People are wondering how these things happen or get stolen and who is doing it and how. But no one knows anything or has a clue.
marbleman on 14/2/2021 at 13:23
Yes, but as klatremus pointed out a few pages ago, the point of Supreme is not to leave everything untouched but rather cover the tracks by returning all items that can be returned and resetting everything that can be reset. It's not always possible though. Often, keys are not droppable and doors become unfrobbable when open. It's impossible not to leave evidence in these cases, but the Supreme rules specify that you're excused in such situations. So, you can pick up such keys and open such doors, it's not to be avoided. Traps aren't mentioned in the rules. This means deactivating them is okay, but you have to re-arm all of them that can be re-armed; otherwise, it's a Supreme bust.
Quote:
Isn't supreme ghost meant to be that, though? An extra hard challenge, not just a different flavour of ghosting?
It's obviously harder than regular ghosting, but it's not the most difficult mode imaginable, and you can always add more rules on top of it to make it harder. Stuff like no saving and loading that so many people frown upon, or "immersion enahcers" like never using elevators because they make a lot of noise yet AIs don't hear them. But none of these were part of the original ruleset, so I stand by what I said.
Starker on 14/2/2021 at 14:23
That's the reason why I don't think it fits with the premise -- a deactivated trap is miles more suspicious than an open door or a misplaced crate. Traps are there to deter passage, after all, and often placed as part of a security system. And that's another thing I cannot get my head around -- why are only things like watchers and alarms considered to be security systems, but not traps? So... if triggering a trap activates an alarm, then it's a security system, but if it does something else, like trapping the thief or injuring them, then it's not? Deactivating a turret is not allowed, because it's a security device, but deactivating a pretty much identical trap that serves the exact same purpose is allowed? Seems pretty inconsistent to me.
I mean, by that logic, can the floor trap in Masks be deactivated, because it's a trap and not a security system, even though it's obviously meant to be a security system?
Cigam on 14/2/2021 at 16:03
If there is something about returning everything to it's original state if possible, then if you turn on a light you'd then have to turn it off? And that's a bust.
klatremus on 14/2/2021 at 17:13
Quote Posted by Galaer
About rope arrow: Again, sorry if it annoys you. You mentioned that rope arrow is needed in this mission, but no, rope arrow isn't needed to complete any objective. You mention that using crates would be tedious, but you are doing even more tedious things in your runs. I would say setup for kidnapping Cavador is more tedious. I remember watching Travis Whitsitt trying for couple of hours to do this technique. In Cragscleft you are waiting 10+ hours for novice to move forward. In Angelwatch you are waiting another 10+ hours for golden child to move away. I would say these activities are more tedious than stacking crates. There is no shame in skipping optional tedious loot. Also you would only need crates to climb high places in Building B. Sure there is elevator secret in one of hangars, but it's allowed to shoot water arrow into switch. As for doing supreme ghost without rope arrows, I may at some point do that. Not now though, because these tedious activities scares me out of even regular ghosting OMs.
I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make earlier. In those situations mentioned above with the crazy stack,
there is no other way to get that loot/objective, so you are forced to do it that way. If I had an option and didn't have to make that stack and instead could take a rope arrow, then I would. That's what the "unnecessary pickup" rule is all about. What you don't need, you don't take. If you choose to take a rope arrow because the other method of doing it is too tedious and too risky, then that is your choice. Of course, you need to report that you took it, and that it actually can be avoided. If it worked the way you interpret it, then what if someone Supreme ghosts a mission, then a year later realizes there was a way to avoid taking a certain item (say a rope arrow)? Does that mean his run now suddenly is busted, and that he actually didn't Supreme ghosted the missin? Absolutely not. That would be ludicrous. It would take the fun away from successful runs, and would make for a very judgmental attitude among other players. And as far as the rope arrow in Shipping & Receiving, I refuse to accept your argument until you actually take all the loot I used the rope arrow to take, and prove to me that boxes can indeed be used.
Quote Posted by ultravioletu
Yes, judging strictly, one should stop as soon as the loot requirement is met. :p Don't we have a variation that requires that?
And, for the extra challenge, pick up only those pieces of loot that sum up
exactly to the loot requirement :)
No mode ever has included that rule. Objectives and loot are not considered "unnecessary".
Quote Posted by Starker
That's the reason why I don't think it fits with the premise -- a deactivated trap is miles more suspicious than an open door or a misplaced crate. Traps are there to deter passage, after all, and often placed as part of a security system. And that's another thing I cannot get my head around -- why are only things like watchers and alarms considered to be security systems, but not traps? So... if triggering a trap activates an alarm, then it's a security system, but if it does something else, like trapping the thief or injuring them, then it's not? Deactivating a turret is not allowed, because it's a security device, but deactivating a pretty much identical trap that serves the exact same purpose is allowed? Seems pretty inconsistent to me.
Well, there are currently two different rules, one that governs traps and the other governing security systems. So the makers of the mode had them separated. It has therefore been ruled in the past that security systems are watchers and alarm systems that are meant to alert other AI of your presence. Traps are devices meant to hurt you or kill you (gas, arrows, spitfire, bombs, falling debris, spikes, etc). Sure there are some security systems that work a bit more like traps. I'm especially thinking of some of the turrets in First City Bank & Trust. They are operated by pressure plates, so they would be traps more than security systems. But you could say they are part of the whole building's security system. But since they don't set off any alarms, I would probably put them in the trap category. No information is given in the rules about deactivating traps, and we are not going to add extra limitations now, 19 years after the mode was made. I agree that from a "leaving no trace of presence" attitude, it perhaps makes sense, but not all the rules make perfect sense. There are a lot more limitations that we could've included that would also make sense, but since the mode already is very difficult, future modifications to the rule set will only set out to
clarify existing rules, not
add or remove rules or parts of rules.
Quote Posted by Cigam
If there is something about returning everything to it's original state if possible, then if you turn on a light you'd then have to turn it off? And that's a bust.
No it is not. Rule #6a:
No dousing of torches. Turning off electric lights, snuffing candles, or removing any light source including Mushrooms is also Not Allowed. Removing light sources directly created by the player, for example in order to complete a puzzle, is allowed. 'Nuff said.
Cigam on 14/2/2021 at 17:49
Quote Posted by klatremus
what if someone Supreme ghosts a mission, then a year later realizes there was a way to avoid taking a certain item (say a rope arrow)? Does that mean his run now suddenly is busted, and that he actually didn't Supreme ghosted the missin? Absolutely not. That would be ludicrous.
Just a thought but isn't there already scope for this? You might place a crate then only find out months later that it was on an AI patrol path. Some AIs have a very long route and how would you know in a new FM that if you had waited another 15 mins Benny would have turned up.
But anyway, fair enough regarding light sources.
