marbleman on 19/6/2021 at 15:50

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Whoops, I added more questions to my last post after you've replied, klatremus. :D Please take another look.

Meanwhile, I want to ask about the format of this addendum. I feel that making it an appendix somewhere in the end would be a bit messy and that it's better for it to be merged with the existing rule set by adding an asterisk under each rule where TDM nuances come into play, for example:
1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
* In TDM, AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.

klatremus on 20/6/2021 at 00:06

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@marbleman: You are right, I missed the questions you edited in right before I sent my last post. To be honest, I have never really been in agreement with Supreme busting from enemies alerting to missing loot/objectives. I honestly think they should be excused. The rules say "No alerts of any kind" without actually specifying alerts caused by missing loot, but it has always been interpreted to include those as well. It has never really been a problem, as most missions don't have this feature. In Undercover there are 2 loot items in the cemetery iirc, but you can just take those after the alarm is set off. The only other one I can think of is Into the Odd, where it was frustrating as it was the only Supreme bust from the ladies commenting on the main objective (golden egg) being gone. But even in this circumstance, it was a different remark than a normal first alert, and there was no settling remark, so highly comparable to TDM alerts of this nature. If you think about it, later that day or the next day, surely everyone will realize they have been robbed and notice missing items. I agree that alerts to loot items/objectives should be excused in TDM if they are as common as you say, as long as you are not seen or heard in the process and no other rules are broken. Doors left open or other changes causing alerts would not be excused however. For regular Ghost, if it is just a comment it would be excused, if it leads to hunt mode, it would be a bust. This follows the spirit of that rule set.

As for your second point, would a mumble without change in behavior be comparable to a first alert? Or is it just idle mumbling you're talking about. You say it doesn't count towards the stealth score, but does it still show up in the stats? If so, and since it is called an "alert", I don't think these should be allowed for Supreme, but ok for plain ghost. I don't know much about the stealth score/alert system in TDM.

The addendum would probably be added to each rule yes, wherever it is relevant. Probably with an asterisk and also a color difference, for easy recognition.

@Galaer: It is rare, but possible, that the highest difficulty (expert) is not the most challenging yes, but that is what the rule is referring to. You can of course always do what you did playing Running Interference on a lower difficulty and just report the reason for doing so, that is totally fine. Everyone in the ghosting community will understand that. Ultimate Difficulty Mod is exactly that, a mod, and those are never included in the rules. In fact, they would be discouraged, because the report wouldn't be comparable to other players' reports for the same mission.

marbleman on 20/6/2021 at 10:35

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Anyway, here's the first draft of the addendum.

A. Ghost Mode

1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
* AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.

4. No second level alerts, that is recognition or hunting alerts, of human or non-humans AI are allowed. This includes undead, fire elementals, spiders, bots etc. Rats are excluded.
* No alerts of levels 2-5 are allowed. The player can take an unlimited amount of level 1 alerts so long as the stealth score remains at 0.

8. The use of quirks of the Dark engine is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported. Examples include techniques such as "banner transmigration" and "nudging," as explained in part B.
* Similarly, the use of idTech 4 quirks is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported.

B. Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules

5. Examples of alerts

[...]

5.1. Alerts in the Dark Mod

Alerts in the Dark Mod work slightly differently than in Thief. An example of Alert 1 would be a guard muttering to himself something along the lines of "That's an odd noise" or "That's an odd shape," but continuing to patrol or sit in the chair. An example of Alert 2, however, might include these same remarks but with different motions. Patrolling guards would stop and do a little lean, while sitting AIs would rise from their chairs. Alert levels 3-5 are easier to detect as they have different remarks and more conspicuous motions.

D. Supreme Ghost Mode

4. No Alerts of any kind from any AI or Device: No first alerts, no comments at all from AI. A single chirp from a Watcher, “Musta Been Rats...”, zombies groaning, etc are a bust. All AI and devices must remain in their normal state and not react to anything you do or initiate in the game. AI walking around and muttering to themselves or having a conversation with another AI are fine.
* No level 1 alerts are allowed.
** Scripted responses to being pickpocketed or noticing missing loot are allowed. These are different from regular alerts and do not count towards anything in the stats.
*** Scripted responses to open doors, although they are also different from regular alerts and do not count towards anything in the stats, are not allowed.

5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.
* There is no need to discard any of the starting equimpent on the loadout screen.

11. No exploitation of the Dark engine: No nudging, banner transmigration, hooking of AI with boxes, barrel polka dancing or anything that takes advantage of quirks in the Dark engine for game play advantage.
* Similarly, no exploitation of idTech 4 quirks is allowed.

This obviously needs further refiniement before being merged with the ruleset. I also want to run this by the TDM community forums as I am not that experienced with the game yet.

Galaer on 20/6/2021 at 21:14

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Hold on a bit, I read that in TDM search mode starts from 3rd alert, so shouldn't regular ghost allow 2nd alert?

marbleman on 20/6/2021 at 21:56

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I'm thinking of trying to Supreme some bigger missions now, but the prospect of getting a stealth score of 1 or 2 after spending several hours on a mission scares me a little. Would it be acceptable to rely on a (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20245-view-stealth-score-during-gameplay/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-443389) tool like this that allows you to see the stealth score in-game? Normally you can't see it until the mission's done. Long story short, this is something I used when I just got into TDM because I couldn't figure out how alerts and stealth score work (this is how I learnt not to trust first alert remarks for example as these could also be alerts of level 2). Now that I have more experience, I don't need this tool anymore and it feels a little immersion-breaking, but in a large city mission with long sightlines, I'd love to check on those stats once in a while.