Galaer on 21/6/2021 at 06:10
Quote Posted by marbleman
No because level 2 alerts already add to your stealth score. They are kinda like semi-search mode, but at this stage AIs already get a firm idea of your presence.
I disagree with you. Stealth score is helpful tool, but it shouldn't be the most important thing in ghosting. It has it's flaws after all (you mentioned that blackjacking is allowed). So it doesn't reflect ghosting perfectly. The essence of ghosting was always avoiding being detected - in other words avoiding search mode. It just happened that 3rd and 4th alert represent search mode. And it just happened that normal Thief 1st alert is split into 1st and 2nd alert in TDM. It also happened that TDM creators prioritized 1st alert over 2nd alert. But I don't thing we should worry about score the most. The most important thing should be worrying about what kind of alerts we get.
There is another problem I see. You said it yourself that both 1st and 2nd alert are very similar to each other, so it's hard to distinguish between them. I read in faq that AI stops and looks in one direction in 2nd alert. So it wouldn't be too hard for patrollers, but what about stationary guards. This makes it that ghost player must be more observant than supreme ghost player. Supreme ghost player will just reload game after hearing 1st alert comment, but regular ghost player will be forced to look very carefully at guard trying to distinguish if it was 1st or 2nd alert. Maybe it would be better to avoid any 1st alert comment. But then you play supreme ghost. I don't want to end in situation when I assumed that alert from guard was 1st alert only to find out at the end of mission that it was actually 2nd alert and I'm forced to restart the whole mission just because both alerts are so similar.
So for regular ghost I would strongly suggest to not put so huge emphasis on getting perfect stealth score and allow 2nd alert. Top priority in regular ghost should be avoiding search mode, not a bit more suspicious 1st alert.
klatremus on 21/6/2021 at 06:15
Without having seen the difference between 1st and 2nd alerts in TDM, I tend to agree with Galaer here. The last point about difficulty in detecting the difference for stationary guards is important.
Galaer on 21/6/2021 at 07:23
It's not just that. Both alerts uses the same comment remark (that's what I understood from marbleman words). This means that they would both be classified as Thief games first alert. And if the score system wouldn't exist I'm sure this 2nd alert would be allowed. So now I wonder why having score system that gives points for 2nd alert makes suddenly so huge difference.
Also I read Hexameron's old reports on TDM missions and looks like his stealth score isn't always 0. So looks like even he allowed these 2nd alerts even though it adds points to stealth score.
marbleman on 21/6/2021 at 08:36
I'd like you guys to try out TDM soon so that you'd base your arguments on your own experience rather on what I've written. :D
It is overall more difficult to detect alerts in TDM. Guards are much, much quieter, and their footsteps are not that easy to hear. You can even get 3rd or 4th without ever noticing it. I sure did when I started out, many times.
It is possible to detect 2nd alerts in stationary guards by their motions. Yes, it's more difficult, but so is detecting alerts in general.
What you're saying does make sense if you want to equate alert states in Thief and TDM. TDM 1st and 2nd alerts would correspond to Thief's 1st alerts, while TDM 3rd and 4th alerts would correspond to Thief's 2nd alerts.
True, this is not the line of thinking I used when drafting up the addendum, but I can see the logic behind it.
Again, please try for yourself how the game feels. Maybe you'll figure it's not suited for ghosting at all.
Quote Posted by Galaer
Also I read Hexameron's old reports on TDM missions and looks like his stealth score isn't always 0. So looks like even he allowed these 2nd alerts even though it adds points to stealth score.
Here's a quote from one of those reports:
The "stealth score" of 3 in my final stats confused me. According to the author who explained it on TTLG: "The stealth score is going to be reviewed and hopefully rewritten. At the moment it starts at 10 and 1 point is deducted for even tiny alerts that you might not even notice. Think extreme ghosting then double it. Also remember these AI can see further than in Thief so they might mutter something far down a corridor that you don't even hear. "... thought I saw something ... must have been rats" kind of thing."
This is
not how stealth score works now. We can't rely on that anymore.
marbleman on 21/6/2021 at 11:11
I'm currently playing Catacombs of Knoss Remastered, and, without going into spoilers, there is a trap where two AIs spawn right near you. You can disarm it, which will still spawn the two AIs but they'll be dead. I don't think it's a bust since it's scripted, but I'd like a second opinion.
klatremus on 21/6/2021 at 18:57
You are right, marbleman. I definitely need to play more TDM before having a say on those rules. My comments were more thinking out loud, but without experience to back it up. I have a few more T1 missions to play and then I'll get into TDM, probably a smaller mission first, then one of Melan's look tempting.
The trap spawning dead enemies once disarmed seems like a bust to me. It reminds me if the ring that spawns a haunt nearby in Bad Debts. You can use holy water on the mist before taking the ring and the haunt spawns dead. This was deemed a bust for that mission, or at least I treated it as such.
marbleman on 22/6/2021 at 21:13
Quote Posted by klatremus
The trap spawning dead enemies once disarmed seems like a bust to me. It reminds me if the ring that spawns a haunt nearby in Bad Debts. You can use holy water on the mist before taking the ring and the haunt spawns dead. This was deemed a bust for that mission, or at least I treated it as such.
Okay, but if it doesn't spawn any enemies at all once disarmed, that's not a bust right?
klatremus on 22/6/2021 at 22:46
Correct, because it is the killing of the enemies that is disallowed, not disarming the trap.
Galaer on 27/6/2021 at 19:55
So I took your suggestion, marbleman, and played some TDM missions. It didn't start well, because Training Mission is really awful. These pop-out messages vanishing way too quickly iooks like really bad idea. Mission doesn't really explain some basic function like opening chests with key. I thought I need to use key on lock and then use lid. It took me 10+ min to figure out that I need to interact only with lid. Then why lower part is frobbable? Grabbing bodies on your back is never explained. I managed to find about that by mistake in 1st introductory mission. There are some rings on crate and one of them can't be picked, because crate is being highlighten. And ring is too heavy to raise crate from it's spot. So getting ring is awkward trying to make it fall out of crate. Also there are some invisible barriers blocking way into alleys or invisible ceiling (you can shoot rope arrow up there, but if you start climbing rope, then something will stop you. That's pretty terrible 1st impression. Luckily introductory missions are much better.
So now I know why you wanted to disallow 2nd alerts, marbleman. I would say that the problem is that they are looking very similar to 3rd alerts. And that's true, alerts are very quiet. But they stop and look around. But I think that they sometimes continue their patrol route without stopping and this still counts as 2nd alert. Usually when they see opened door and decide to check situation, it counts as 2nd alert. But not always. Sometimes this behavior don't count to stealth score. Thew same goes with the situation when enemy immediately spot us and attacked us. I was checking my stealth stats when guard was attacking me and I noticed lack of points added to stealth score. So that's really weird, but it would be good to still avoid that.
I agree with pickpocket alert, it looks pretty innocent. Alert to lack of loot though should be avoided, because it's 4th alert. Enemy raise weapon, searches around, gathers other guards and suddenly there is one huge mess and you need to wait long time for them to calm down. The problem is this kind of loot isn't indicated and you may not detect that. If there is stationary guard near loot, then he may spot lack of loot immediately. Patrollers frequently visiting area near loot, will spot loss on their 3rd or 4th journey near this loot (so after couple of min). Guards on long or random patrol route may not spot lack of loot on their 1st visit in room. This means that they may spot lack of loot after 10 or 20 or more minutes. You will be long time gone, so you may never detect this 4th alert. The last situation I would excuse based on lack of knowledge.
Also I think it would be good to disallow alerts connected to completing objectives. They don't count to stealth score, but they are alerts nonetheless and they are made by our action. Example: in Tears of St Lucia is objective to destroy statue, so it will look like accident. You do that by pushing giant hammer on statue. Fall make huge noise and 4th alerts guards below. This doesn't count to stealth score, but objective didn't say to alert everyone. Actually intro mentioned possibility to do it without alerting anyone. But I don't think it's possible.
It wasn't mentioned in rules, but in this game are cheats. They can make you indestructible, make you walk through walls, make you undetectable or spawn weapons. I think it should be mentioned that these cheats are disallowed.
marbleman on 27/6/2021 at 21:27
I only recently saw how guards react to missing loot. Indeed, they search the area, fully alert and with weapons raised, and all nearby guards join in as well. While it doesn't count towards stealth score, I'd probably treat it as a ghost bust as well.
I figured the no cheating rule would be obvious, but we can add that as well.
