marbleman on 29/6/2021 at 21:34
Another thing I noticed while playing with the stealth score tool: sleeping AIs give first alerts if you're making noise, but they have no remarks for that. You'd never detect this without the tool. Not sure whether this should be allowed.
Galaer on 30/6/2021 at 06:04
I think it's similar to scoring 1st alert from guard who is very far away. You can't hear that too. So I think it should be allowed. Weirdly enough sleeping AI doesn't alert to picklocking or opening/closing chests. They alert to the sound of opening wardrobes or cabinets (sound of opening doors), but they don't alert when you close them. I noticed that during ghosting A New Job and mentioned that in my report.
I have another question. Recently I supreme ghosted Swing. It's a parkour mission without any enemies. The main problem is retrieving rope arrows and shooting switch resetting catapult. In Thief games it's allowed to use arrows that way, but in TDM arrow breaks in half and fall on ground. Is this allowed for supreme to leave this evidence? Though in this particular mission I was sent by King, so everyone knows that I was on giant swing. Also broken arrow fell at the bottom of the canyon, way below swing and it's believable that rope arrow could fell down and break, because it's placed loosely on table on swing, which changes position all the time.
klatremus on 30/6/2021 at 06:29
Alerts from sleeping guards where you don't hear anything are annoying. I haven't experienced this myself, but I don't see how it could be a bust. You can't require players to have the tool available in order to know. This rather seems like a bug that the DM team should fix. What is the point of the stealth score system if it detects what is not really a detection? If a sleeping guard hears something, he should wake up.
The arrows question is tricky, Galaer. The whole point of using the arrow is to reset something that you've changed, but in doing so you change something else... It's a lose-lose situation. Not sure about that one. What do you think, marbleman. Ugh, the dark mod poses more issues than I thought. In the end it might be on a case to case basis for some missions. The three of us seem to be the only ones ghosting it at this moment, at least following the rules, so we'll just have to keep checking here if we have questions. For your specific situation Galaer, I'd probably say you're fine, because the arrow ends up at the bottom of the canyon for one (where few will notice it, if ever), plus anyone who used the catapult could've droppped the arrow. Still doesn't feel right though, you know.
Galaer on 30/6/2021 at 06:50
Quote Posted by klatremus
If a sleeping guard hears something, he should wake up.
But that would be 2nd or 3rd alert. TDM alerts are more realistic. If you sleep lightly you can still hear small noise, but will you say something? If it's small noise, then you will probably ignore it and continue sleeping. And that's the same story with TDM. For supreme ghosters it's annoying situation, because of lack of indication of an alert, but maybe there is something - a very subtle change in behavior. It's hard to tell.
klatremus on 30/6/2021 at 07:42
Maybe. I am ghosting A New Job right now and will check once I get to Rothwick's room. The stealth doc is invaluable to learn the alert levels; highly recommended. I noticed in your report for A New Job that you weren't able to get the ring in the nest without alerts. You can instead of leaping onto the pipe going up there, mantle onto it from the wooden roof. Mantling is always silent, which is great. Going back you can't do that, so you have to do a running jump from the nest level all the way to the wooden roof. Since it's wood it makes less noise and doesn't alert anyone if they're far enough away. Just sharing tricks in TDM as I learn them going along.
@marbleman: I remember you said that first alerts have settling remarks, but that is not always true. Several times I have heard a guard say "hmmm" quite loud. Checking the stealth doc this is a first alert, but I never hear a second remark from this alert.
marbleman on 30/6/2021 at 08:18
In Thief, the use of moss arrows is allowed to hit buttons, but moss arrows also leave evidence. I'd say leaving broken arrows behind is okay. Can you press buttons with water arrows in TDM?
Sleeping AIs might become the bane for Supreme ghosters then if no alerts whatsoever are allowed. You might see a single 1st alert in the end and say, well it clearly comes from a sleeping AI... but are you sure it does?
Regarding settling remarks, maybe! I just know they exist, but maybe AIs don't settle from 1st alerts.
Galaer on 30/6/2021 at 13:22
About sleeping AI - even if there is no indication, it's still possible to learn what sound 1st alerts AI and what range of hearing it has. Also one thing I learned - don't mantle on bed, because AI will definitely wake up.
As for my report: it was more about testing stuff. I know that it's possible to drop on pipe without any alerts when guards are away, but I wanted to check their range of hearing and their reactions. Even my Tears of St Lucia has a lot of stuff that I noticed, because I was testing stuff. I didn't write about this there, but if you take plate from spider nest, 2 spider shows up. If you fall into water, these 2 spiders will go into search mode, but it's impossible to hear it, because they are couple of rooms away. And when you go to them, they just stand in place without any indication there was any alert. I only know there was search mode thanks to stealth stats scroll.
klatremus on 30/6/2021 at 23:00
So thinking about it more, I do not agree with counting alerts for sleeping enemies at all. There are plenty of times in Thief where I'm sure the engine registers first alerts for enemies, but you dont hear anything. Here are some cases: 1. If enemies dont have sound files for first alerts. Many special enemies with custom sounds simply dont have first alert remarks. 2. Enemies involved in conversations. Here it's very obvious because sometimes they even give the settling remark after the conversation ends. 3. Neutral guards. In some missions, these also give settling remarks even though they're not supposed to. 4. Enemies that have already been in a fight with someone else. They will be in a constant first alert state and thus not give remarks any longer. 5. The case in question, sleeping guards in TDM.
I'm sure that in all these 5 cases (and probably more) TDM will count them as Alert 1s, and if we are strict and just follow the stats, they will bust Supreme. This is not in line with the original rules where all of these would be allowed. We should stick to the spirit of the original rule set and not the stats only. I'm pretty firm on this guys.
Cigam on 1/7/2021 at 16:15
Responding to an earlier point, I thought T3 ghosters did not count AI reactions to missing loot? The whole game would be unghostable if you did? Or was that just Travis Whitsitt?
marbleman on 1/7/2021 at 16:16
@klatremus: I fully agree with that reasoning. I'm just not sure how to explain this in the ruleset. Additionally, those playing without the tool might get many more plain undetectable alerts from guards far away or behind walls, which does happen quite often. And once again, I don't know if these should be allowed. Honestly I think the use of the stealth tool should be encouraged somewhere in the rules as well.
