Galaer on 2/7/2021 at 06:01
About sleeping AI - I played A New Job to check if there is any change in behavior of sleeping AI, but I didn't notice any change. On the other hand I noticed something else. I was wrong in my report, sleeping AI doesn't alert to the sound of opening wardrobes and cabinets, but rather to your footsteps. I didn't notice that, because I was casually ghosting and I didn't care too much about 1st alerts, so I was just crouch running in room and that was source of 1st alerts. So on wood you just need to hold creep when moving no matter the speed of your movements. In other words you can run while standing and it will be fine, but only if you also hold creep.
Another problem I made during my testing was I was releasing creep before releasing my movement buttons. This led me to making extra step without creep, which was a source of 1st alert from sleeping AI. To avoid that, first stop moving and then release creep button. That's what you need to do on wood, but most likely different surfaces will give different leeway. I'm guessing that on cobblestone or carpet you will not need to creep, but on metal you will be forced to crouch walk + creep. In other words to avoid 1st alerts from sleeping AI you must listen to your own footsteps. If you make louder footsteps while in room with sleeping AI, it will counts as 1st alert. Also be careful of loud dropping objects, but most likely AI will just wake up to that. Also during my testing I managed to supreme ghost lord's bedroom in A New Job FM. So it's possible to learn how what you need to do to 1st alert sleeping AI without having indication from it.
About eavesdropping - I tried that, but I couldn't make it work. But since marbleman said it's possible and I got tip about it during loading screen. So eavesdropping works a bit differently than in Thief. Leaning forward towards door doesn't work. You must instead lean left/right towards door and after 1-2 seconds you will hear what's happening on the other side. I guess that's the step towards reality.
klatremus on 2/7/2021 at 16:08
@Galaer: I ghosted A New Job already and definitely got an alert 1 from the secretary desk opening, not from footsteps. Were you able to do that whole room with no alerts at all? If so, that is very strange. I also detected that he alerted to footsteps, so I creep crouched the entire way. I checked before and after opening the desk multiple times. And it definitely counted in the stats but like you I didn't see or hear anything. I'll try it again, but 99% sure on this one.
Galaer on 2/7/2021 at 19:11
Yup, I'm positive that this room can be beaten without any alert. I checked again, played a bit with dropping book and he only 1st alerted to loud drop of book from high. But I played this room couple of times and even beaten without saves and scored no 1st alerts. I also managed to make diary unfrobbable by putting book on right side of cabinet door and closing cabinet, book will fall on floor and become unfrobbable. And by the way, even this doesn't 1st alert sleeping lord.
klatremus on 3/7/2021 at 06:22
You are right, Galaer! When I did it this time, I got no alerts either. That is so strange. Last time I stood by the desk, checked the stealth stats and saw no alerts, then opened the desk and check the stats again, 1 alert. This time I got an alert 1 a few times, but that was from tapping my shoes going past the bed. But I got none from the desk. The first time I must have unknowingly tapped the forward key just as I was opening the desk, because he can give an alert to this. I still don't think alerts that aren't verbalized or visible during gameplay from sleeping enemies should be bust Supreme, but it's very nice to know what is possible or not.
I'm happy I wrote I was 99% sure in my last comment, and not 100%... :p
marbleman on 3/7/2021 at 13:07
A few more observations.
Guards will sometimes comment on doused torches if they are like that to begin with. Guards will also comment on doors left open by other AIs. These remarks should obviously be excused.
klatremus on 3/7/2021 at 16:25
I noticed that also, reacting to torches I mean. It caught me by surprise, as I expected that to have been fixed by the dark mod team already.
Noticing doors opened by player doesnt add alerts to the stats though, so I assume perhaps the same goes for alerts to missing loot? Can't remember if you said it already.
marbleman on 3/7/2021 at 17:22
Yeah none of those count for anything in the stats, but we were talking about remarks regarding open doors busting Supreme. So I'm clarifying that these remarks can happen without the player's actions.
klatremus on 9/7/2021 at 20:44
Quote Posted by marbleman
Scripted responses to being pickpocketed or noticing missing loot are allowed.
After playing some TDM, I'm a bit confused by the word "scripted" in your statement here, marbleman. Are there non-scripted alerts to missing loot. If so, how can you tell the difference?
Also, I feel a missing loot alert rule should be absolute; either all if them are allowed (like now) or none, but what about those cases where an enemy starts hunt mode and alerts several other enemies as a result of detecting missing loot. Are these also allowed then, given you are not seen or heard in the process? If they are, it will make for a very different ghosting experience. You have to monitor which loot items trigger such responses, and plan to take those last so you can escape soon after.
marbleman on 9/7/2021 at 21:06
First, let's separate pickpockets from loot. Guards always alert to being pickpocketed.
Second, scripted in the sense that -- if I understand this correctly -- it's up to the author to set whether AIs alert to missing loot and which pieces they notice being missing. There are good arguments for these to both bust and not bust Ghost. On the one hand, it may take AIs several minutes to notice a piece being missing, and it might be impossible to know if they do alert if you've already moved on. On the other hand, when they do alert, it's equivalent to a 4th alert, though it doesn't count in the stats.
klatremus on 13/7/2021 at 15:43
After playing a few TDM missions, here are some things I noticed. These are not questions, just observations that I'm interested to see if others have experienced similarly or differently.
1. There is no silent outer edge of objects/terrain. This was a neat trick in Thief to use to traverse across metal pipes for example, or even to land on to remain silent.
2. Above a certain height (3-4 feet), there is no way to drop without making noise when landing. Only on silent surfaces like carpet or grass does it work, but on others like stone or wood even, you cannot drop crouching and avoid making sound like in Thief.
3. Stationary (and sitting) enemies pivot their heads around randomly. This you can exploit to move on one side without them seeing you if you wait for them to look away. Been able to take several loot items this way that would otherwise bust Supreme.
4. Crouch-walking and tapping the run key makes you go faster without making the running sound. On hardcore, enemies are especially vigilant for sound, so this trick is useful. I saw in the .cfg file that sound is cranked up to 1.5 on hardcore while visual alertness only to 1.005. Since 1 seems to be default, would it be an idea to only require 1.0 for both categories for ghosting? I mean if the rules say highest difficulty then you technically should crank these up to 10. What if they add another option in the menu in a future update to say 'insanity' and that increases both to 3.0? Would this be required for Ghost then? Right now, their audible perception is almost unrealistically high.
5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall. If you look around after leaning, it's almost as if you lower your head to the ground, where the game thinks you are now at ground level. It then applies the ground's light properties to you and you turn even darker. In one case I did this and went from fairly lit up and detected by enemies to almost completely dark and no alerts. I'm not sure if my explanation made sense, but I'll do more experimentation on this.
6. Enemies can bump into you just a tad without alerting, but at a certain threshold they will automatically alert. Also, if you touch them even the slightest from behind, you can't blackjack them.
7. Mantling in a standing position makes more noise than from crouching, which is usually completely silent.
Really enjoying TDM now that I'm getting into it. I love the stealth tool and the quantified stealth score at the end. It makes for very good comparisons between reports. Even if you're failing Supreme or regular Ghost, you still want to lower that score as much as possible. I'm really missing the lockpick count in the stats though, I wish that was there. I saw on a new update they are putting 'load times' in the stats just like the 'save times' are there now.
Would really like your feedback on this, and perhaps other things you have noticed. :thumb:
