marbleman on 13/7/2021 at 15:57
Yeah, I have noticed most of those things as well, namely, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7. The bottom line is that TDM plays a lot differently than Thief, and while a lot of tricks of the latter are not applicable, there are many tricks unique to the former.
Regarding 1, while you can't simply drop onto pipes and chains, you can still jump and mantle them from a side without making noise. I also noticed two other things here:
- TDM doesn't have the infinite fall+mantle trick like Thief. If you fall from a height and catch a ledge, you will mantle it but you'll also take damage.
- You can turn while jumping in TDM! This doesn't come into play often, but I used this several times in The Painter's Wife, which helped quite a bit.
Regarding 3, patrolling guards do that too.
Regarding 4, I don't see every ghoster checking their .cfg files. Should we just lift the Hardcore-only requirement and allow playing on preferred settings? What are the values for Nearly Blind/Deaf? Are they above 1.0?
I never tried 5, but I did notice that leading around corners almost always gives you away unlike in Thief, which is quite annoying. Interesting that it has such an advantage.
Finally, regarding 7, you don't have to be crouched to begin with. It's sufficient to crouch as you're mantling.
Here's a few more observations:
1. The upward and downward angles at which guards can see you are insane. Definitely higher than in Thief.
2. Guards can hear you climb ladders, so you have to creep while doing that. Speaking of, if you jump while climbing a ladder, you'll climb it faster. :D
3. Tiny spiders do not alert to you. The big spiders are a pain the the absoulte ass however. Their movement is random and sporadic, and I still don't understand how to deal with them.
4. There is no lock-blocking in TDM, and you also can't use a guard's patrol to bypass lockpicking a door. Guards always close doors, and if you try to interfere, they alert.
Galaer on 13/7/2021 at 16:48
Quote Posted by marbleman
What are the values for Nearly Blind/Deaf? Are they above 1.0?
I believe they are around 0.2. By the way, I played Training Mission while having guards sensitivity at Nearly Blind/Deaf and noisemaker arrow training is impossible. On this lowest setting guard will just 1st alert to sound of noisemaker arrow, it was impossible for me to lure guard away. Also if guards are turned away and you are running on metal, they will just 1st alert.In flashbomb challenge you can run to hole without using flashbomb and guard will go only into search mode (3rd alert) instead of hunt mode. In other words, this setting is pretty much broken.
But on the other hand their reaction time to switch between alerts into full alert is the same and if they are in 4th alert, they become very sensitive. I had situation in A New Job in Inn I decided to KO talking guys. I KO-ed noble guest and guard talking with him went into 4th alert. With all alerted guards it was not only hard to KO all of them, but also stay undetected. And all this time their setting was on Nearly Blind/Deaf.
As for klatremus' idea to crank up guards settings to 10 - I'm against that, because this means increasing difficulty outside of the game. Similarly in T!/T2 you could edit FMs to have guards on highest sensitivity. Or install Ultimate Difficulty Mod.
klatremus on 13/7/2021 at 18:17
@marbleman: What do you mean turn while jumping? That you can easily do in Thief, so I must be misunderstanding you.
Yes I also noticed you can instead mantle pipes, and that leaning exposes you, super annoying. It kind of defeats the purpose of leaning for concealment purposes.
I think the next step down for hearing below hardcore drops it to 0.8 or something. I mostly think we should keep it at hardcore though. It's better to make it more challenging than too easy. We are bound to get better at ghosting TDM anyway. I absolutely am against letting it be up to player, the minimum levels should be specified in the rules
I haven't encountered small spiders yet, but regular green ones are obnoxiously frustrating. I experimented a long time but got nowhere.
@Galaer: I didn't mean to suggest increasing it to10. I was just saying it's a simple cfg change, so developers might change the menu settings in the future outside our control.
marbleman on 13/7/2021 at 18:20
I mean you have a slight bit of air control in TDM. In Thief, once you jump, you can't change the direction in which you go, but in TDM, you can. Not by much, but you can.
Also, I don't think we should expect such changes from TDM developers. :D The settings work fine, so why would they tweak them?
Oh yeah, one more observation: if you save in shade but reload when you're lit, your light gem will be bright for a split second uplon loading, which is enough for guards to give a remark. Kind of annoying as it instantly forces a second reload.
Galaer on 27/7/2021 at 14:40
In Accountant 1 (TDM) there is web hanging under ceiling. On top of it are crates needed to pass electrical floor. You must shoot one of ends of rope, so web will fall on electrical floor and vanish. I doubt one rope would destroy the whole web and I don't think electrical floor should destroy it in split of second. So is this apply under damage property rule?
demagogue on 27/7/2021 at 15:32
Quote Posted by klatremus
5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall.
This is how you can ghost my mission (Patently Dangerous). Some people were saying there's a particular part near the end that's impossible, but I figured out it's possible with this trick, so I left it like it was. (Note that this was back in early 2009 before even 1.0 was released.) I was happy to see at least one YouTube LP figured it out.
I think the only concession I made to ghosting was related to your reason 1. You could ghost past the last guard in Benson's place if you went over the bookshelf, but I had to put a carpet on it for it to be silent enough. I think there's at least one other way too though, if you scooted across in front of the fireplace fast enough.
klatremus on 27/7/2021 at 17:08
@Galaer: Cobwebs are not considered property under the new clarifications. See the ghost rules, section B3 under commentary and interpretation. Neither is it a bust to use arrows, as long as nobody is alerted.
@demagogue: Yes that trick works in many places in various missions I've played since then. It could be very important in preventing busts in future runs. May I ask what YouTube LP shows it?
Galaer on 27/7/2021 at 18:19
Quote Posted by klatremus
@Galaer: Cobwebs are not considered property under the new clarifications. See the ghost rules, section B3 under commentary and interpretation. Neither is it a bust to use arrows, as long as nobody is alerted.
No, no, I mistook the word, I was talking about fishing net.
klatremus on 27/7/2021 at 18:55
Hmm yes if it's a fishing net then it would fall under the property category. Anything constructed by intelligent creatures or humans. Is a fishing net substantial enough to break the rule? I'm not sure. In this case you'll probably just have to make a decision and report about it. What do you think?
klatremus on 28/7/2021 at 00:03
In TDM, I've also noticed that enemies occasionally alert to seeing fastened rope arrows, but such alerts also do not count towards the stealth score. Just like reacting to open doors, I likewise think these alerts should bust Supreme, but not regular Ghost. Enemies don't deviate from their path or move if stationary, so they are equal to first alerts. It should be added to the amendment under Supreme rule #4.
