Cigam on 29/7/2021 at 19:39
Galaer, surely the theoretical spirit of the rules has to be tempered by what a player can reasonably be expected to determin or know?
Even if you camp out near a piece of loot you have just swiped for an hour, to check if some future guard will come through and react, it is always going to be possible that the guard has just distance-deactivated. Realistically it is not reasonable to expect people to always know such things.
Perhaps a compromise would be to have some sort of "ignorance is bliss" clause?
If you never see or hear any evidence that a guard has reacted to a specific piece of loot theft then it is not a bust? Whereas if you hear a guard grunble or witness them in search mode, then honour-dictates that you investigate what you did to cause this, and go back and not do it?
But then that approach has its problems. Realistically you either excuse such reactions full stop, or you require players to be psychic.
Galaer on 29/7/2021 at 20:13
@Cigam: I have no idea what you mean by distance deactivated guards, but if enemies don't have random patrol routes (and probably in most of FMs they don't have), then you only need to wait couple of minutes for alert. Since it usually takes couple of minutes to sneak through rooms patrolled by enemies, it's not that hard to notice missing loot alert.
Cigam on 29/7/2021 at 20:27
Galaer, If you move far enough away from an AI in Thief, then it freezes. They only operate while you are within a set distance from them.
Plus an AI might not even start patrolling until a conversation has triggered.
Camping out at each loot location isn't enough to prove the matter, unfortunately.
Galaer on 29/7/2021 at 20:53
@Cigam: Ah, so you meant guards not walking, because you are far away. That's not really any problem in Thief, because enemies are usually close enough to quickly alert to missing loot. Most of troublesome loot in Undercover is watched by stationary guards. Into the Odd has 2 women walking around cage with egg. In Making a Profit there is several monsters and one woman who will quickly make missing item/body alert. So it's hard to not detect. And also you will not have enough time to run far away to freeze AI.
As for 2nd situation - the only place I know is cemetery in Undercover. And yes, this one may be hard to detect, but mission is short and easy and good indication of this alert is launched alarm. It was also well documented by other ghosters that loss of these pieces of loot will alert Hammerites.
Camping for every pieces of loot in Thief isn't necessary, because it's rarely used by creators alert. And by the way, my previous post was mostly focused towards TDM.
klatremus on 30/7/2021 at 04:48
Quote Posted by Galaer
Are you out of your mind?
I certainly hope not, but you can never be sure.
I am mainly using Thief logic. At the core of gameplay has always been objectives and loot. Those are the reasons you are playing the mission at all. Take those out and what is left? Like I said before, I have never really thought about missing loot alerts until very recently, as the only mission I had experienced it in was Undercover, where you can take the loot after the alarm and be good for Supreme. Recently I discovered T2X mission 4 (coin stack on gambling table) and Into the Odd (the golden egg which is both loot and objective). In T2X I didn't care too much because it was only worth 10 and the mission couldn't be Perfect Supreme Ghosted anyway. In Into the Odd I took the bust but begrudgingly so, because I felt it was a bust by design and the author's choice more than bad ghosting. Plus it was the only bust and the last item I took in the mission.
Since we are now writing rules for a new mod from scratch, we have the chance to change things we feel the need to. We wouldn't change core rules, but then again alerts to missing loot aren't even mentioned in the original Ghost rules. Since there were multiple pieces of loot in Tears of St. Lucia that caused alerts, I figured this could be a common occurrence within that mod's fan missions. If not, then I guess it is not that big of a deal. But this mission is one that came along with the installation, so I thought those would represent what to expect in other missions also. Also, learning that they are scripts deliberately input by the author makes it almost like just another challenge. I compare it more to perhaps a change in patrol route after a certain event happens, or the spawning of new enemies to increase the challenge. It brings an extra aspect to ghosting that we haven't dealt with before, dealing with alerted enemies and how to best deal with them. I think that could be a fun aspect of ghosting. Like I said before, you could possibly use their alerted state to get into previously inaccessible areas, or get loot you couldn't before. Or you have to plan your route accordingly and take this risky loot last. Plus these alerts aren't normal alerts: 1) They do not have settling remarks, and 2) They do not count towards the stealth score. And piggy backing on what others have mentioned, you have to wait for patrollers to come by to be 100% sure. And how can you ever be absolutely certain? I agree with Cigam that you either have to allow them or disallow them, not require players to know everything. Alerts to tools left behind or doors left open you can confirm because you are right there and would close the door or remove the rope arrow immediately, but loot is gone forever. You can't replace them.
I vote for allowing missing loot alerts in TDM. I honestly think it would make ghosting more fun, and isn't that why we play this game?
Galaer on 30/7/2021 at 06:04
I'm of course vote for disallowing that. To be honest, hearing that very good supreme ghoster who was avoiding alerts made by him and now saying "let's allow search mode", is really sad. I don't know if it's short sign of weakness of yours, but that's really disappointing. So I guess you don't care about troublesome loot in Undercover taken at the beginning of mission, instead near the end, which will result in alarm at the beginning of mission. That's really sad.
Also don't be too happy if others will agree with you. You are supreme ghoster and in supreme rules there is rule about not manipulating AI and this activity is clearly manipulating AI. So you will not manage to use it anyway.
marbleman on 30/7/2021 at 06:58
I know of at least two other missions where these alerts happen, Penny Dreadful 2 and The Painter's Wife, and I haven't played that many TDM missions.
I was inclined to count them as busts when I first learned that they look like 4th alerts, but my main reasoning for allowing them is that one can never be 100% sure when these alerts will happen. This is the same reason hidden objectives are not necessary to complete for Supreme, simply because the player might not know about them. If I complete a report and claim a successful Ghost, and then later find out that AIs in a mission alert to a piece of loot being missing, does that invalidate my report? I don't think so.
If you know these alerts happen, you can choose to skip the corresponding pieces of loot and add it to your report, simple as that. Or you can try to take them last and then rush to the exit so that mission will end before they happen if that makes it any more acceptable to you.
Also, calm down a little. It seems you're taking it way too personally.
Galaer on 30/7/2021 at 10:54
TDM is too slow to rush to exit with loot that makes missing loot alert. Of course you can say that you are oblivious to this alert even if you know it happened or think that it will not happen. The same story can happen in Running Interference. You must escort Basso and if he will alert guards, then it always counted as a ghost bust. I mean, it's Basso and Jeniviere who alert guards, not Garrett. And you can stay all the time outside for Basso and Jeniviere and when they will appear and mission will end, you don't need to check if they alerted anyone. Let's be oblivious to that and be optimistic. But no, we still count that as a ghost bust.
Another example of alert not triggered by being seen or heard is if you put dead body in front of non alerted AI. Again it will move and it will lead to search mode. If it's servant, then it will run away. But I would still call this activity a ghost bust.
My huge problem with allowing missing loot alert are 2 things: it's a search mode and it's not common alert. If this would be 1st alert just like pickpocketing alert, then I would allow this no problem. If this alert would affect every piece of loot in every mission, which would make ghosting impossible in TDM, I would also allow that no problem. But the thing is - it's really rare alert, so I don't see any problem with avoiding these pieces of loot. And when you say you want to allow this alert, you sound more like loot hunter than a ghoster.
Another weird thing is that you want to allow this alert, but disallow another special alert about noticing open doors. Again AI must be programmed to notice open doors. Usually if open door is on their patrol route, they will enter room and close door without any comment. And if open door isn't on their patrol route, they will ignore it and leave it open. Plus this alert leads to 2nd alert, so it's lighter, but still disallowed. On the other hand missing loot alert leads to 4th alert and you want it to be allowed. You are creating paradox here.
About not knowing about missing loot alert, making report and then learning from others about another missing loot alert you didn't know - something like that was happening in the past. Other ghosters playing the same mission and informing that something that first ghoster thought wasn't bust and it was bust in the end, so first ghoster was changing his report. Good example is Hexameron's report about Chalice of Kings. Originally he thought that it's impossible to switch crowns without alerting guards, but later Peter Smith proved that it's possible. So Hexameron changed his report to failed. It happened to you too. I remember that you, marbleman, claimed supreme ghost success on Disorientation and then after many months mentioned that you failed it by not sending elevator. So this is really point of honor. There was time when there was discussion that made more precise what damage property is. That means that some of my reports are wrongly claimed as success or wrongly claimed as fail. I'm planning to do a turnee though my old reports after finishing ghosting rest of T1/T2 missions. I remember about that, so don't worry, this invalidation affects me as well.
Anyway, I'm gonna still avoid this missing loot alert even if it's gonna allowed by you. I really feel that it's not in the spirit of ghost to allow it.
marbleman on 30/7/2021 at 11:22
You know, I would skip those pieces of loot too if I know they'll cause alerts. The situation becomes tricker in a mission like The Painter's Wife, where AIs react to you stealing the objective item. This falls under "immediate consequences of completing objectives," which was already ruled to be acceptable.
Galaer on 30/7/2021 at 13:03
But objective item and common loot piece has different importance. Objective item must be taken for mission to complete, while common loot piece can be skipped. But is that really apply to "immediate consequences of completing objectives". I thought it is allowed if you grab item and at the very same moment you break other rule - like you are taking item that emits light. Or when objective says to destroy something, but it leads to damage property. Still you need to avoid being seen or heard while doing that (like explosion being heard by AI). That's why I thought this rule doesn't apply to alerts that may happen couple of seconds later.
I would personally still classify your situation as a ghost bust as you don't have objective to alert anyone (unless you have and you didn't mention about that). I also don't like excuse about Undercover alert being scripted, because it's clearly activated by Garrett and it launch alarm, which alert every Hammerite in Cathedral. This mechanic of activating something through reading scrolls is introduced at the beginning of mission to enter Cathedral through main door. In FMs is also used to open doors or summon new enemies. It's only in Undercover it launch alarm.
