klatremus on 31/7/2021 at 23:26
Very interesting discussion this. Thanks for all your great input. Some good points in your last comments, Cigam. :thumb:
Galaer on 1/8/2021 at 06:59
Quote Posted by klatremus
Very interesting discussion this. Thanks for all your great input. Some good points in your last comments, Cigam. :thumb:
I don't see where exactly he's making a good point in his last comment. He mentioned old, empty house and going in circles around him for an hour, which for me is indication that he didn't really read my comment at all. I like challenge. You can easily complete objectives and getting loot in normal mode. Even during ghosting these things are most of the time easy. It's usually about sneaking through really tight patrols, getting well guarded key or getting to control panel. A lot of the time it's about figuring out how to solve situation without breaking ghost rules. So it's not about sneaking randomly for an hour, but it's about solving tough situations. For example, klatremus, nudging golden child in Life of the Party. It has nothing to do with completing any objective or loot, you can easily use invisibility potion and get out. And yet he spend many hours to nudge him out of the way. Or your ghost challenges: they are about tricky situation where you want to get through certain optional for ghost areas, getting equipment or loot the hard way. I had a lot of fun figuring out how to get in and get out of West Side of Monastery in Patriot without breaking ghost rules. It has nothing to do with completing objectives or getting loot, because you can just explode wall of barrels and easily go through. That's also the intended by author path. To avoid that I needed to think outside the box and that was really fun.
Also there is a lot of missions without any loot, so after ghosting them you leave empty handed anyway.
Starker on 1/8/2021 at 11:09
As per the rules commentary:
Quote:
2. No shame in failing
In spite of exceptions that have been allowed, it is preferable to report doubtful results as a bust and to avoid attempts to dilute the rules with exceptions or new modes of play. There is no shame in failing to complete a mission in Ghost mode. It is intended to be a challenge that is not usually achievable.
klatremus on 1/8/2021 at 16:01
@Galaer: Yes, I was referring to Cigam's points about interpreting some rules differently. You report your way of doing it and if the rules are not 100% clear then others have the right to disagree. I totally agree with your assessment on small challenges within missions. They can be as fun or even more fun that the main objectives and loot. We are on the same page. Thanks for referencing my ghost challenges.
@Starker: That is from the normal Thief rules though. If you were referring to the missing loot alerts, we were discussing the Dark Mod. The games are different, so there could easily be differences in the rules' implementation.
Galaer on 1/8/2021 at 16:27
In Accountant 2 there is situation where going through vent, floor suddenly fall down and myself with it. Impossible to avoid. Should I classify this as damage property or excuse that as something done by invisible trigger?
Cigam on 1/8/2021 at 16:28
Galaer, what I meant by 'sneaking randomly' was something like 'sneaking around just for the sake of it'. Generally speaking, Garrett doesn't break into a place because there is nothing on the Telly that night. So for entertainment he decides to break in just for the sake of setting himself his own challenges. He is there for objectives and gold.
You as a player might not value these, and instead might prefer to set yourself your own challenges that have nothing to do with either, and that is of course absolutely fine.
But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."
Galaer on 1/8/2021 at 16:42
Quote Posted by Cigam
But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."
I watched his video too and he also mentioned that if official Thief 3 rules will be made and they will be different than his assessment, then maybe his gonna replay Thief 3 along new rules. So he's not saying that his principles he had back there are absolute, he's ready to adapt in case of changes.
marbleman on 1/8/2021 at 16:46
Okay, this should be it. I didn't add anything regarding the removal of light sources since the rules here are the same as in Thief.
A. Ghost Mode1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
* AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.
4. No second level alerts, that is recognition or hunting alerts, of human or non-humans AI are allowed. This includes undead, fire elementals, spiders, bots etc. Rats are excluded.
* No alerts of levels 2-5 are allowed. The player can take an unlimited amount of level 1 alerts so long as the stealth score remains at 0.
** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses.
*** Responses to being pickpocketed are allowed. These are different from regular alerts and do not contribute to the stealth score.
**** Responses to finding open doors and player tools such as deployed rope arrows are allowed.
8. The use of quirks of the Dark engine is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported. Examples include techniques such as "banner transmigration" and "nudging," as explained in part B.
* Similarly, the use of idTech 4 quirks is allowed, but only as a last resort, and must be reported.
B. Commentary and Interpretation of Ghost Rules5. Examples of alerts
[...]
5.1. Alerts in the Dark Mod
Alerts in the Dark Mod work slightly differently than in Thief. Instead of three alert leves, NPCs have five. Additionally, getting alerts, except those of level 1, contributes to the stealth score, a mechanic unique to TDM. This system is explained on the stat screen upon successfully completing any mission, so anyone intending to ghost TDM is highly encouraged to familiarize themselves with it first.
It is also highly encouraged to use (
https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20245-view-stealth-score-during-gameplay/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-443389) Dragofer's Stealth Statistics Tool to get a feel for how alerts work and to check the stealth score when playing missions for ghost reports.
D. Supreme Ghost Mode1. Highest difficulty level available and playable, usually Expert, although it might be renamed by the author.
* AI vision and AI hearing must be set to Hardcore in gameplay difficulty settings. Lockpicking and combat difficulty may be set per each ghoster's preferences but should be reported when they become relevant.
4. No Alerts of any kind from any AI or Device: No first alerts, no comments at all from AI. A single chirp from a Watcher, “Musta Been Rats...”, zombies groaning, etc are a bust. All AI and devices must remain in their normal state and not react to anything you do or initiate in the game. AI walking around and muttering to themselves or having a conversation with another AI are fine.
* No level 1 alerts are allowed.
** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses.
*** Responses to being pickpocketed are allowed. These are different from regular alerts and do not contribute to the stealth score.
**** Responses to finding open doors and player tools such as deployed rope arrows, although they also do not contribute to the stealth score, are not allowed.
***** Sleeping NPC can give level 1 alerts but never give verbal cues when they do. These alerts are not a bust, but it is encouraged to avoid them. The only way to gauge these is to use (
https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20245-view-stealth-score-during-gameplay/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-443389) Dragofer's Stealth Statistics Tool.
5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. Free items at loadout are allowed to be taken. Stores other than at loadout, such as in-game shops, are ok to use as long as you are not spotted and do not break any other rules. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved. Holy water vials are not considered potions and are allowed.
* There is no need to discard any of the starting equimpent on the loadout screen.
11. No exploitation of the Dark engine: No nudging, banner transmigration, hooking of AI with boxes, barrel polka dancing or anything that takes advantage of quirks in the Dark engine for game play advantage.
* Similarly, no exploitation of idTech 4 quirks is allowed.
Now, I have a question.
Quote:
5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall. If you look around after leaning, it's almost as if you lower your head to the ground, where the game thinks you are now at ground level. It then applies the ground's light properties to you and you turn even darker. In one case I did this and went from fairly lit up and detected by enemies to almost completely dark and no alerts. I'm not sure if my explanation made sense, but I'll do more experimentation on this.
Is this a quirk of the engine that wouldn't be allowed for Supreme?
Starker on 1/8/2021 at 16:50
Quote Posted by Cigam
Galaer, what I meant by 'sneaking randomly' was something like 'sneaking around just for the sake of it'. Generally speaking, Garrett doesn't break into a place because there is nothing on the Telly that night. So for entertainment he decides to break in just for the sake of setting himself his own challenges. He is there for objectives and gold.
You as a player might not value these, and instead might prefer to set yourself your own challenges that have nothing to do with either, and that is of course absolutely fine.
But in a general sense, these are the primary motivations. Which matter in regards to discussions of what breaks the spirit of ghosting. Speaking of which, here's the quote I remember Travis using to justify or partially justify excusing T3 loot-alerts: "principles of ghosting are: you are not seen or heard and you do no damage. The only evidence of your presence should be the items you have stolen."
Gold is not equal to the objectives, though. It's more like an additional constraint -- finish the mission while getting at least x amount of gold. And not in every mission, even. It can be one of the objectives, sure. Ghosting is a far more strict constraint in this regard. In the original mode, it didn't allow for any exceptions even for completing mission objectives.
You can also easily picture a more cautious and prudent Garrett who doesn't pick up every fork and pair of scissors he comes across and doesn't go for riskier pieces of loot whose disappearance is liable to be noticed soon.
Cigam on 1/8/2021 at 17:43
Quote Posted by Starker
You can also easily picture a more cautious and prudent Garrett who doesn't pick up every fork and pair of scissors he comes across and doesn't go for riskier pieces of loot whose disappearance is liable to be noticed soon.
This discussion started because in practise, you have no guarantees that the above applies to
this specific piece of loot. Will some future guard come along and moan about
this coin stack etc. So some people have suggested excusing such alerts for the sake of practicality and game flow. Otherwise the player might need to spend hours on the matter.
Some think excusing loot-alerts would violate the spirit of being a ghost. Others think that due to looting being a big part of the game it is compatible, or at least no less compatible than allowing full-scale alerts and much worse, in order to complete that other big thief-motivation: finishing an objective. And then still calling yourself a ghost as you walk out with the alarm ringing and every AI in hunt mode.
Yes, the strict mode you mention saves all this fuss, and is probably the purest ghost mode.
