Ghost rules discussion

Starker on 1/8/2021 at 21:42

Yes, I have been following the discussion. I don't talk much here, but I read every post.

No, you don't have any guarantees a piece of loot won't be noticed missing, but for most pieces you can be fairly sure. When you play a mission, especially in ghost mode, you become reasonably aware of the patrol routes and what loot is near them. The only thing you need to verify it is to have a guard go past the spot. And if in doubt, you can always leave the loot be.

It's a similar situation as with crates in supreme ghost -- you're only allowed to stack them at places that isn't a patrol path and even then you can't be completely sure there isn't some long-winded patrol that you unfreeze after you move on.

Cigam on 2/8/2021 at 00:23

I think klatremus explains it well here

Quote Posted by klatremus

The biggest reason I have for allowing loot is the fact that you cannot be sure what loot items trigger alerts and which ones don't. What if you have a table with 6 pieces of loot and one patroller with a route around the whole building but with random pathway. Should you take 1 piece at a time and wait for him in between each time? This would take much more than 3-4 minutes each time. And you'd have to do that for every single piece of loot in a mission, and you'd have to track all the patrol routes to know exactly where they could go.

When can you have no doubt? It was many years and several playthroughs before I discovered that in Bafford if you wait long enough in the servants' quarters, then eventually a servant makes his way there. I had usually been long gone by then. He could theoretically have been a missing loot-hawk.

As for the crates, well I have previously argued similar. If there is no AI during the time the crate is there its OK. And that people should not have to worry about theoretical future patrols walking through the spot the crate temporarily once was.

In my Bafford case, I could easily have spent several playthroughs placing crates in the corridor I would eventually discover that that guy walks down. At what point could I have said that there was no doubt that that corridor is never patrolled?

klatremus on 2/8/2021 at 00:50

@marbleman: I think that is a very good and comprehensive amendment for TDM. I'd say we play a few more missions each with those rules and see how they play out. Then if there are no major obstacles or changes needed, I can copy/paste those into the official ghost rules thread. I just think we need time for them to simmer a bit. I will make a few TDM videos in the next few weeks and I am sure you will too. But this looks great so far.

Cigam on 2/8/2021 at 13:39

Quote Posted by marbleman

** Responses to noticing missing loot are allowed. These look like level 4 alerts but do not contribute to the stealth score. It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that cause these responses.

Perhaps being a bit nit-picky, but I think I first misunderstood that second part to mean that there is still some sort of honour or an onus on players to skip such loot? If there is no such onus, then perhaps it could say something like: "It is up to each individual ghoster whether or not to skip loot pieces that cause these responses."

If it was intended to convey such an onus, then maybe it could at least qualify this with the player needing to know that the loot is one that will cause such an alert? As in something like: "It is up to each individual ghoster to skip loot pieces that they know will cause these responses."

Apologies for the nit-picking it is only because, as I say, my first reading made me think about which of these was meant?

P.S. FWIW that thing about changing your light properties sounds like an exploitable bug to me? It doesn't sound like intentional design at least.

Cigam on 2/8/2021 at 14:10

Quote Posted by Galaer

In Accountant 2 there is situation where going through vent, floor suddenly fall down and myself with it. Impossible to avoid. Should I classify this as damage property or excuse that as something done by invisible trigger?

For me I think it comes down to whether it is a normal floor that is scripted to collapse, or whether it is a floor physically designed to collapse under a weight of the player's magnitude? If the floor wouldn't have collapsed without a script telling it to, then wouldn't that come under scripts?

Galaer on 2/8/2021 at 16:22

Quote Posted by Cigam

After a while of thinking I would say that this situation is closer to pushing wall in Sound of a Burrick mission. There you shouldn't push wall by frobbing if it wasn't been destroyed damaged earlier. And it's a bit similar in Accountant 2. Normally floor doesn't fall if it wasn't damaged. Still I'm gonna try to activate vent floor's fall while I'm in air, because I learned that while in vent you can still jump. Something that's impossible in Thief games.

marbleman on 2/8/2021 at 18:34

@Cigam: Thanks, I adjusted the wording.

klatremus on 2/8/2021 at 21:24

@marbleman & cigam: No that trick can't be classified as an exploit. First, all you're doing is leaning and moving the mouse. You're not penetrating anything or defying logic regarding gravity or object manipulation. Second, you would do it accidentally many times if leaning around a corner or crouching in between objects.

Galaer on 3/8/2021 at 08:27

Quote Posted by klatremus

But leaning usually makes you more visible. Plus just based on your description I don't really understand how this trick looks. Could you show this trick in your next TDM video?

Edit: after a bit of thinking I wonder if your trick has anything to do with clipping into wall. Because yeah, clipping into wall in TDM is actually possible. Also just like your trick it has something to do with corner. I achieved that in different why though. I was trying to enter Lounge in Accountant 2. Entrance is observed by sitting guard and sitting player. To avoid their alerts I decided to crouch and walk slowly along wall while looking at a wall. Just like I do in Thief games. When crossing doorway I turned and suddenly I got sucked into wall. I freaked out and escaped from it. Tried to sneak into Lounge again and again clipped into wal. Third time was the charm and I avoided clipping into corner of doorway again.

I wonder if your trick isn't clipping your head into inside of wall. Inside of wall is full shadow. Light gem works as combination of position of your lower and upper half. So if you are leaning out of shadow, you will be more visible. But if you are leaning into shadow, you will be less visible. And I believe that's what happened. You are leaning into corner and somehow you are clipping upper half into inside of wall and that's how you gain more shadow. If that's how your trick works, I would call it an exploit.

klatremus on 4/8/2021 at 19:51

What I did was definitely not related to wall clipping. Once I did it from a corner, leaning into the room. The other was in an open marketplace next to a support pillar. It works any time you lean really, so think it's just a side effect of the engine's leaning mechanism.