klatremus on 31/8/2021 at 22:43
@Galaer: The rule about optional objectives has been at the core of the Supreme rules since day 1, so I dont think there's any chance that'll get changed. It's one of those things that separates Ghost from Supreme I guess. Alerts outside the players control should be allowed for your second point though, like alerts during camvator sequence or like the automatic damage dealt in Keeper of the Prophecies.
@Peter Smith: Nice of you to drop by! Having you and Sneak both posting in a ghost thread again is great to see. I challenge you both to post a ghost report in the thread linked by vfig, that would make my day. :cool:
Galaer on 1/9/2021 at 06:49
@klatremus: But why exactly completing optional objectives was ever considered to be a core of supreme ghost rules? That's what I don't understand. You could imagine Garrett would simply avoid doing optional job that leads to being seen or heard. I mean, only main objectives are necessary to complete mission.
Cigam on 1/9/2021 at 16:59
Galaer, I suspect that the answer to your question is that the ghost rules are a mix of two types of rules. One type is about how your actions affect AI disposition and/or the environment. The other type are there simply to make the challenge harder, and aren't necessarily about the philosophy of being a ghost as such.
The requirements not to take any damage, not to use potions, and to complete optional objectives I think come under the latter type. As of course none of these change alert states or modify the environment (and so providing evidence of your presence).
In principle you are a ghost as long as no-one hears or sees you, or finds any evidence that you were there. The philosophy of this isn't altered by whether you took some breath damage taking a long swim, or used a potion. And of course the guards can't know that you optionally could have performed some other task while there, but chose not to.
FWIW I think I would have preferred only the first type of rules to be mandatory, and for anything else to be an optional extra challenge. Like Iron Ghosting or Perfect Ghosting, someone can Optional Objectives Ghost, or No-Potion Ghost if they want to.
But hey it is what it is, and presumably there was general agreement in the community at the time? It could have been even harder, at least they didn't make Iron Ghosting a mandatory requirement :)
klatremus on 1/9/2021 at 17:01
I really dont know why, but I assume it's to increase the challenge. It would be the same reason you have to play on expert difficulty; you could choose normal or hard in order to Supreme Ghost it, but that isn't allowed. I think Sneak would be the one to ask such a question?
Sneak on 1/9/2021 at 17:11
Well my internet connection has been down for a bit so I think I am back in order.
First Off, Peter you are still around! Really glad to see that. We might have to take Klatremus's Challenge and Ghost something. Will see. I have been playing around in Calendra's of late. Things to do in there.
Galaer,
Thanks for the welcome. It is appreciated. :cool: Will have to give you a straight out answer on your post. Nothing there remotely requires a rule change. Sometimes its more of the way you look at it or approach it. What you have is not a "Stupid Dilemma", it is "A" Dilemma ! So what are you going to do with it? Maybe you are Busted. It happens ! I have been Busted more than I have Succeeded. Or maybe you will come up with something unique or new that hadn't been thought of that gives you a win. Way back up this thread both Peter Smith and Yandar nailed it. You don't change rules so you can win. I will say flat out that Supreme Rules were not written to help you win. They were written to Challenge you. You might do a flawless Supreme job of a mission and be busted with one item. Take whatever comes at you. You might be surprised what you can come up with at times. :cool::D;)
On the second part of your post it looks like Klatremus squared that away. I have not played that mission so I can't answer it directly from experience anyway. But I want to ask and this goes out to the whole board. Way back at the beginning of Ghost it was an understanding; not a rule because it doesn't need to be; but an understanding that if the Game Engine threw you a curve and you couldn't solve it by waiting it out or with reloading a save or shutting down the game and restarting it, then you could use other means to solve it. 99 % of the time this was an AI that got stuck on something. That stuck AI would kind of jam up the works. Usually it would happen in the same place for lots of people. I won't go into detail about ways to unhook them right now but sometimes they might alert. I bet Peter Smith and Klatremus will remember it. Are you guys still operating under that?
It sounds like the alert hitting the ground at the beginning of that mission you described above is one of those engine things unless the FM Author intended it. Back then if we were writing a Report, we'd just make a note of it and go on by.
So I haven't finished reading this entire thread. Am on page 6. Will get through it. Curious about any changes made to the rules.
Galaer on 1/9/2021 at 19:23
@Sneak: I have reported couple hundreds of ghost reports and I know that ghost can be really easily busted and it may be a really cheap bust. Sometimes it's due to AI placement, sometimes it's placement of key item or completing main objective is impossible or you need to destroy obstacle or alarm. Supreme ghost can also be really easily busted. For example when you have locked door that automatically closes, so there is no time to lock door and return key. Or sometimes you need to leave heavy bag to pressure pedestal in order to not trigger alarm. Or you get tiny small 1st alert from neutral AI when you open door. That's all supreme busts that may really easily bust your run.
But supreme ghost wasn't made to be just harder than regular ghost. It's a mode where core principle is to avoid any detection. That's why I find it very weird that there is rule forcing player to do optional activity that can sometimes very easily bust supreme ghost exist as part of supreme ghost rules. It feels for me like this rule isn't in the spirit of supreme ghost. That's why I suggested change.
klatremus on 1/9/2021 at 20:48
@Sneak: We dont really operate with that rule of excusing busts if the engine messes with you no. Mostly because it doesn't say so in the rules. I do regular hardsaves so I can go back and try again if necessary. If that doesn't work I take the bust and report it as such, but then mention in my report/video that the bust can be avoided if the engine doesn't mess up. I feel that's a cleaner way of doing it. If in doubt, I say bust, and then excuse it if the community agrees on it.
@Galaer: The Supreme mode is based on 2 major principles: Not getting detected, and playing on maximum difficulty. Requiring optional objectives would then be expert difficulty on steroids, which does indeed follow the Supreme spirit.
Galaer on 2/9/2021 at 06:09
@klatremus: But not triggering objectives also make them optional and that's allowed. Also maximum difficulty is also required on regular ghost, but it's allowed to skip optional objectives there. Not skipping optional objectives feels like it could happen in completionist mode, but not in any of ghost modes. And there is a lot of ways to maximize difficulty that never appeared in rules: you could desire triggering and completing all objectives, play without equipment no matter what (so don't use it to press switches either), require 100% of loot and more.
klatremus on 2/9/2021 at 17:06
Sure, there are ways of making it more difficult, but this is the level that has been chosen. Just because one difficult selection has been made, doesnt mean you then also have to make every other possible selection that increases difficulty...
Not triggering objectives were chosen as allowed because there are some hidden objectives the player might not know about, and you should require the same of all players, not based on the player's knowledge. Some like to ghost on the first playthrough, where requiring the player to know about all hidden objectives is unfair. Also that's why 100% loot isnt required, because if you dont know where all the loot is, it's unfair. Plus there is a Perfect Supreme mode specifically for full loot, so it wouldnt make sense to have that added to the rules then.
