Emerald Wolf on 24/11/2007 at 05:29
How does ghosting work when there are friendly AI around? Is it okay for them to see you, and if not how can you tell that they have? (it would be rather bothersome running around with your blackjack held over your head the whole time after all).
And while we're at it, what are the current "official" rules for the various degrees of ghosting (The one on the eidos forum I've read says that you don't need to get all the loot and using water/moss arrows is fine)
john9818a on 24/11/2007 at 05:45
The AI can be friendly in two different ways
1 - They can be on the same team and won't ever be alerted by simply seeing the player.
2 - They can be on a different team and be set to react only when alerted. In this case simply seeing the player won't alert them.
Ghosting in front of a friendly AI doesn't really help you avoid any situations because they simply don't exist. Once the AI is alerted by another AI, then they will react to seeing you.
I don't know where the link to the ghosting rules is, but there are several sets of rules depending on your level of ghosting.
smithpd on 24/11/2007 at 09:45
(
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=30310) Ghosting Rules
There is no rule against being seen by friendly AI. The relevant rule is that you cannot alert the AI. Alert basically equals a hunting response, a flee response, or something meaning obvious notice, like "I see you there.", or "come out, come out, wherever you are." Etc. The Supreme Ghost variant, seldom played, disallows even mumbling, like "must've been rats," which is normally allowed. But friendly AI don't do any of this. They are OK.
Emerald Wolf on 24/11/2007 at 10:30
Thanks for the reply. I was asking mainly because the idea of ghosting is that no-one should suspect you of doing anything wrong. But if someone sees you while friendly and at a later stage becomes hostile there is the argument that they might remember seeing you previously and hence this might be considerd a bust.
smithpd on 25/11/2007 at 02:45
Quote Posted by Emerald Wolf
But if someone sees you while friendly and at a later stage becomes hostile there is the argument that they might remember seeing you previously and hence this might be considerd a bust.
There is no argument from me or from the rules. It is not a bust if the AI does not alert. I have never actually seen a friendly AI become hostile later, unless you blow your cover somehow, in which case
that is the bust, not the fear of an AI's "memory". If and when a friendly AI becomes hostile and is alerted by your presence, that would also be a bust. The basic rules are pretty simple. Now, if you want to be thorough about it, you could close and re-lock all doors, return all keys, put back all notes that you can, never put out a torch or turn off a light, leave no moss behind, and wipe your feet at the doormat. ;) Supreme Ghost has some of those features. Myself, I am happy to just muddle along by the normal rules.
R Soul on 25/11/2007 at 16:45
I think it's worth mentioning that when someone makes a mission with friendly AI, the mission may not be designed with hiding in mind. In other words, the author may not provide many hiding places because they don't think the player will need to use them. With that in mind it could be argued that it's not really your fault if you get seen.
smithpd on 25/11/2007 at 19:00
That is certainly true, R Soul, but fault is irrelevant to the ghost rules. There is no shame in being busted. Some missions can't be ghosted.
@Emerald Wolf,
I stated above that I did not recall any situations where friendly AI turned hostile. Well, no sooner did I say that, than I found one!:o
That situation is in the mission "The Lost Crusade," which I just played (and ghosted). In that mission, if you ghost it very carefully then the AI act normally, and some are friendly, throughout the mission. I did achieve that once, so that is the basis of my untainted ghost success. Twice, however, the pirates inexplicably started attacking the citizens of the town, guards and innocents alike. I had no idea what caused it. I held myself blameless, and I would have claimed a success because no AI alerted because of my actions.
According to the readme, which I read carefully only after playing the mission, if you draw a weapon the AI become your enemy. You would think that would be no problem because you are ghosting anyway, so the AI should not alert to your presence. And they didn't. But there was this melee issue. What if someone at a great distance, through a window, saw me draw my bow to shoot a rope arrow? If that caused the melee, am I busted?
That situation is so unpredictable and so seemingly random that I think there cannot be a rule for it. One possibility might be to change the rules so that any alert or aggressive behavior of any AI, regardless of cause, is a bust. This "strict rule" was discussed at length on the Eidos forums years ago and rejected by the majority. It is inconsistent with the precedents of the Archers at LoTP shooting one another and the silent alarm caused by taking the eye in RTC, from which the general rule was derived that scripted alerts not caused by the AI actually seeing or hearing you are OK.
In the end, I think situations like this are gray, and the player can call them like he/she sees them. It is no problem either way. No money or Olympic medals are involved. It is just for fun. :)
john9818a on 25/11/2007 at 21:24
It's also possible that AI's on different teams alert each other and the player would have to determine that it wasn't the fault of the player. Something as simple as a rat can alert a thief, but it won't always be obvious that this occured.
ionia23 on 26/11/2007 at 21:16
The whole point of Ghosting is that NO ONE SUSPECTS ANYTHING. No traces, nothing, nada, zip/zilch/zero.
Yes, this does, by design make some missions impossible, such as the initial alarm in "Soulforge". These rules have been around a long time and are very much time-tested. There are exceptions for certain very-specific situations.
Some players have found some very creative ways to get around this. for a long time it was thought to be impossible to fully-ghost Life of The Party, until someone figured out a way to get around the "Golden Child".
of course, the guy's page does not appear to be up, but the trick kind of works like this:
In LOTP, where you enter the room to read the scripture, on your way down, put some potion bottles on the window ledge.
Go read the scripture. The act of reading triggers the appearance of the Golden Child near the entrance of the room.
Now, wait about 16 hours.
The occasional foot-shuffling of the Golden Child causes a very slight forward movement. The 'bot' will gradually shuffle his way past you while you hide in the shadows. The potion bottles are to keep him from getting 'hung up' on the window ledge.
You'll be able to sneak out right behind him.
If you're finding yourself stuck trying to properly Ghost a mission, don't sweat it. many have tried before you. You may be the person to figure it out.
