Tannar on 14/12/2009 at 21:46
Thanks for your post ffox. I appreciate what you are saying, your point of view, and I even agree with it to some extent.
Though, as massimilianogoi pointed out, I only joined TTLG a little over a year ago, I have been playing Thief since TDP was released and I have been ghosting it for almost as long. Granted, I didn't know about the official rules back then so I didn't know that what I was doing was called "ghosting" and I certainly broke several of the more stringent rules since I didn't know about them. I was playing Thief very much like the majority of "casual ghosters" here have been doing and talking about in this thread. You claim that these players are the majority but in truth, I don't know how many players actually play this way, casually ghosting a mission but not following the rules strictly. I suspect it isn't really a greater number than the "rule-following" ghosters but I don't really know. It would be interesting to find out.
When I discovered the Thief community and the ghosting rules I was intrigued by the fact that such a thing existed. It was just more evidence of a thriving and passionate community. I know that ghosters (either style) are the minority. It's not for everyone. I enjoy the challenge of ghosting by the rules but I enjoy every other style of gameplay as well. It just depends on the mood I'm in.
In all honesty, I have no problem with what other people do. I think I made my viewpoint clear in my previous post and I stick by what I said, but I'm not an elitist. If you want to casually ghost a mission and call it ghosting, that's your choice. If we take a step back from all this and try to look at it in perspective, it seems a bit silly to be making such a big fuss over the use of a single term. But it will likely lead to confusion and, more importantly, the precedent for that term was clearly set by the original ghosters in the Eidos forum and I can certainly see why those who were part of it from the beginning might feel a bit protective of it. Perhaps we can come up with a solution that satisfies everyone. I'll certainly give it some thought.
smithpd on 15/12/2009 at 05:03
Quote Posted by ffox
I sympathise with the ghosters who play by the strict rules...
No need to sympathize with us. We enjoy it.:) I personally do not think the rules are all that strict, difficult, illogical, or whatever the current complaint is. In essence the rules are "Don't be seen or heard and do no damage to AI or property. You are not observed. You are a ghost." That is the concept, pure and simple. The rest is just examples and interpretation.
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... and agree that there is a historical precedent for referring to that style as "ghosting".
Times change though, as does the widely accepted meaning of certain words. Nowadays the vast majority use "ghosting" to mean a generic playing style which is not as rigid, and nothing is going to change that.
That is too bad. Evidently the "vast majority," if it really exists, does not understand the basic concept of ghosting, which I described above.
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I'm sorry if that unwelcome fact annoys the traditionalists but I'm afraid it's a fait accompli, as indicated by many posts in this thread (eg Dussander's above) and elsewhere. Lengthy arguments are not going to change the status quo. Times
have changed.
Maybe, but a little awareness never hurts. Maybe these discussions will cause some people to re-think their positions.
Dussander's objection to slashing banners is a typical reaction. I have felt that way myself on occasion. I have also had a great deal of fun developing ways to avoid slashing banners. For example, the Banner Transmigration technique or climbing an improvised stairway of floating books. Those successes, to me, were worth a lifetime of banner slashing. To each his own.
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In view of the above I suggested renaming the official rules style to avoid confusion with a loosely-defined style. (Renaming the majority usage would not be widely accepted.) I didn't expect my suggestion to put the cat among the pigeons. Please accept my apologies for ruffling some of your feathers.
Apology accepted. I'll have to admit that my criticism was a little harsh, too. I still say the English first need to rename cricket to "bouncy ball". Then we'll talk.:)
I hope that TTLG players feel free participate in official ghosting and write ghost reports at the Eidos Thief forum. You are all welcome. The only requirement is that you play by the official rules. If only 10% enjoy it, that would be great.
Ghosting was never thought to be a universal synonym for sneaking, or basic Thief gameplay. It is different.
jtr7 on 15/12/2009 at 05:12
Quote Posted by smithpd
Ghosting was never thought to be a universal synonym for sneaking, or basic Thief gameplay. It is different.
Yes.
Ghosts, shades, shadows, poltergeists... all give the wrong connotation, and the rules clarify it, most importantly, the exceptions for mission situations where a small set of rules would not account for.
massimilianogoi on 15/12/2009 at 07:27
After the studies for a concourse, and the volountarily keeping myself from Thief, there it is again.
So this is the Pagan Sanctuary:
Inline Image:
http://i45.tinypic.com/jryx43.jpgThis time I've neither thrown an object, just I've been nearly viewed some time (something like "what's that? ... hmmm... maybe a little squirrely!"). This time I hope that the ghost hortodox are happy enough :ebil:
I have had to replay the entire map, because my loot was at 97%, and I have noticed that the missing piece was in the first part of the map, but when I entered in that kind ot staired-tunnel-well the mission ended... :(
Well, towards to the further adventure!! :D
Lytha on 15/12/2009 at 08:11
Quote Posted by Jah
I think this is more of a terminological problem. Though I'm not a ghoster myself, my understanding is that the term "ghosting" is normally used to refer to playing under a very specific set of rules, as laid out by clayman/Lytha.
I think I should clarify that this "don't leave any traces" or "don't ever let a guard see you or get alerted at all" wasn't part of how I played and enjoyed myself.
I was only concerned about getting all the loot and dealing no damages or knockouts. Doing it without anyone getting alerted made it surely easier in T2 (as everyone who had seen me once was very jumpy afterwards), but it was never part of my "rules". Doing it without using equipment made it more profitable, but that was also never part of my "rules.
... and I still find a maddened chase out of the building, after I am done, quite exciting. :)
massimilianogoi on 15/12/2009 at 08:22
So, mine was definitively ghosting, then! eheheh :ebil:
PotatoGuy on 15/12/2009 at 10:14
Quote Posted by smithpd
I hope that TTLG players feel free participate in official ghosting and write ghost reports at the Eidos Thief forum. You are all welcome. The only requirement is that you play by the official rules. If only 10% enjoy it, that would be great.
Thanks for the invite! Since I almost never peek at the Eidos forum, I didn't know people were still so 'ghosty' there. (And I also wonder why such a thread doesn't exist in ttlg.)
Now that I look in the rules, when I ghost I pretty much follow the clayman rules, just not the no damage rule. And since it can't hurt to try, I think I'll try real ghosting one of these days.
Hexameron on 15/12/2009 at 11:17
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
Since I almost never peek at the Eidos forum, I didn't know people were still so 'ghosty' there. (And I also wonder why such a thread doesn't exist in ttlg.)
It would be great to have ghosting threads similar to the "Together in Shadows" series where taffers can attempt to ghost a spotlighted FM and discuss their success or failure. I would start a thread like that myself in the Thief Fan Missions forum, but I have a feeling I'd be the only one reporting... :erg:
If there were an interest in such I thread, I'd even be willing to let it slide if some wanted to "casually ghost" (I think that's a good term, Tannar) rather than adhere to the official ghost rules.
PotatoGuy on 15/12/2009 at 11:21
I think that's a good idea - I myself would like to participate and I think others would try ghosting too.
massimilianogoi on 15/12/2009 at 11:36
:thumb: Good idea! Consider myself recruited. But we have to 1-) start a new thread 2-) decide what mission we have to take. That is a mission in which is proved that it's possible to ghost.
