Hexameron on 10/12/2009 at 21:47
Quote Posted by Dussander
Clocktower can be ghosted up to a point, where you are in the view of two guards facing different directions. I don't remember getting past them because it was too lit up so I had to use a gas arrow.
Well yes, all of the missions I mentioned can be "ghosted up to a point," but technically one ghost bust means the mission is unghostable.
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Moira's mission is ghostable and there are only two spots I remember which were difficult - the 'midnight robbery team' and getting to the lift after you press the switch.
Do you remember which route you took? I always hit the switch and ran through the large banquet hall and then the kitchen. Even dousing all lights and mossing appropriately beforehand, I could never make it in time to the room where the secret passage is briefly revealed. It's basically the AI in the way that cause problems - the female servant and sitting guard in the banquet hall, the servant who opens the oven in the kitchen, and the guard patrolling the hallway outside of the room with the secret passage. Maybe I didn't take the best route?
It's been several months since I played this, but I must have had a good reason for being foiled by the AI here. Maybe I didn't have enough water/moss arrows, but I could never get to that room before the passage closed. I'm impressed if you managed to do so.
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The sunken citadel I think is ghostable but you might have to be 'lenient' if you want the giant crystal shard.
If I recall, I couldn't steal any of the special loot items (the bird thing, the crystal, and the pagan horn) without at least one kurshok drawing his weapon and investigating. I also couldn't steal the Kurshok Crown without causing a chain reaction of 2nd alerts...
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The museum is a monster of a mission to ghost, but I think I did it. It really helps to know the
water arrow trick. The guards are quite spread out, so it makes it easier. I think I only had a problem getting the medallion and resorted to using a moss arrow.
I never succeeded because in order to meet the loot requirement, I had to get a bunch of plates and cups on a table in one hallway. The guard who patrols there always notices the multiple instances of missing loot and draws his sword.
Quote Posted by massimilianogoi
The mission is ghostable dousing the torches too, at least for me: it could be a drafty point where the torch goes out, so nothing bad. Plus, in facts you get no caughts doing this.
I've always had this mindset that if a guard leaves his patrol or idle state to explore a doused torch, missing loot, or open doors, it was a ghost bust.
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For me is ghosting also using flash bombs or noisemaker arrows, the only point is not getting caught.
Flashbombs and noisemaker arrows cause 2nd alerts and the official ghost rules do not allow it.
massimilianogoi on 10/12/2009 at 22:03
Quote Posted by Hexameron
I've always had this mindset that if a guard leaves his patrol or idle state to explore a doused torch, missing loot, or open doors, it was a ghost bust.
Different points of view.
Quote Posted by Hexameron
Flashbombs and noisemaker arrows cause 2nd alerts and the official ghost rules do not allow it.
There's no official ghosting rules, but only logic rules: don't getting caught, don't killing or blackjacking anyone. And if you want to do more, reach the 100% of loots.
PotatoGuy on 10/12/2009 at 22:49
Quote Posted by Hexameron
Flashbombs and noisemaker arrows cause 2nd alerts and the official ghost rules do not allow it.
I do like ghosting, but I never follow the 'official ghosting rules'. I'm sorry, but that just ruins the fun for me. I try to ghost in a way that is realistic for Garrett. For example: one of the ghosting rules says that it isn't allowed to do damage, even to banners or wood. When I'm playing Hipbreaker's
Eclipsed, which takes place in an abandoned town where no one lives anymore, I don't think cutting a banner is a ghost bust: no one (IF someone will go to that town) will notice, because much has been destroyed already.
There are many situations where those rules just sound weird. When I don't get discovered by any AI, but I did cut a banner, I have no single problem with stating I have ghosted the mission.
Dussander on 10/12/2009 at 22:58
I'm not bothered about banner slashing either and I'll do it if there's something behind it. If there isn't I normally reload. I count using flashbombs as a ghost bust - there's something 'unnatural' about them. Dousing torches and leaving moss patches on the other hand could be explained as something other than a thief.
I used the secret exit out of the study to the staircase, then I used the open hall route to get to the secret lift in the mansion, past the telescope. By then you'll have to deal with 3-4 people, 1 might be at the staircase, there's the head maid, a guard patrolling the hallway to the kitchen and another stationary guard in the room itself. It took a few attempts but it wasn't as much of a headache compared to the dining/kitchen route - which I gave up on.
massimilianogoi on 10/12/2009 at 23:54
Quote Posted by Dussander
I'm not bothered about banner slashing either and I'll do it if there's something behind it. If there isn't I normally reload. I count using flashbombs as a ghost bust - there's something 'unnatural' about them. Dousing torches and leaving moss patches on the other hand could be explained as something other than a thief.
A mage? A spell? A thunder? Hmm... now that I think about, there should be on the ground the empty bomb after the explosion.... Hmmmm this is a good matter, pal! I'm curious about what the other people thinks. In facts, if the rests of the bombs remains on the ground, nothing other can be than an effraction..
PotatoGuy on 11/12/2009 at 00:07
I agree with Dussander that a flash bomb really implies that an intruder is present, while with water/moss arrows, there is little proof.
It's really difficult to make up good ghosting rules, because every mission has a different scenario, and in one mission a rule can sound good, while in the other mission it is absurd.
Hexameron on 11/12/2009 at 23:43
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
I do like ghosting, but I never follow the 'official ghosting rules'. I'm sorry, but that just ruins the fun for me.
But the official ghosting rules constitute what ghosting is. "Ghosting" is not slang for sneaking by undetected - it's an original playing style with fixed rules. You can say you play a loosely-translated and modified version of ghosting, but not ghosting as clayman, the playing style's inventor, defined it.
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There are many situations where those rules just sound weird. When I don't get discovered by any AI, but I did cut a banner, I have no single problem with stating I have ghosted the mission.
I would. Ghosting prohibits property damage including slashing of banners. What is actually property damage can be subjective. I mean, is removing a frobbable light mushroom property damage? The litemush doesn't go to the inventory and disappears from the mission. Slashing banners is different, though. Realistically, AI should be upset if they see a cut banner. Even if the banner is located in an obscure area where no AI will ever notice it, the spirit of ghosting still calls for no property damage unless an objective requires it.
Also, if a single ghost bust occurs anywhere in the mission, the ghost attempt has failed. Even if I "ghosted" other areas, I could not claim a ghost success for the mission.
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It's really difficult to make up good ghosting rules, because every mission has a different scenario, and in one mission a rule can sound good, while in the other mission it is absurd.
There's no need to make up ghosting rules because they already exist, and they're not intended to conform to every scenario, which is what makes ghosting fun and challenging.
Quote Posted by Dussander
I used the secret exit out of the study to the staircase, then I used the open hall route to get to the secret lift in the mansion, past the telescope. By then you'll have to deal with 3-4 people, 1 might be at the staircase, there's the head maid, a guard patrolling the hallway to the kitchen and another stationary guard in the room itself. It took a few attempts but it wasn't as much of a headache compared to the dining/kitchen route - which I gave up on.
That's interesting. Thank you for explaining this. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought the banquet hall/kitchen path was impossible.
PotatoGuy on 12/12/2009 at 00:13
Quote Posted by Hexameron
But the official ghosting rules constitute what ghosting is. "Ghosting" is not slang for sneaking by undetected - it's an original playing style with fixed rules. You can say you play a loosely-translated and modified version of ghosting, but not ghosting as clayman, the playing style's inventor, defined it.
I actually believe Lytha originally invented it (though clayman adjusted it and called it 'ghosting'. You got a point there, but I'll try to explain my opinion somewhat more.
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I would. Ghosting prohibits property damage including slashing of banners. What is actually property damage can be subjective. I mean, is removing a frobbable light mushroom property damage? The litemush doesn't go to the inventory and disappears from the mission. Slashing banners is different, though. Realistically, AI should be upset if they see a cut banner. Even if the banner is located in an obscure area where no AI will ever notice it, the spirit of ghosting still calls for no property damage unless an objective requires it.
That's my main point: it seems completely unnecessary to forbid the players to cut a banner on a place where everything is destroyed, and where no one will ever come again. For me, that would ruin fun, pretty badly. If you (and others) like to play it that way, is of course fine by me.
Those rules has been thought of by someone who played the OMs and a couple of FMs. Since then, much more FMs, and FM scenarios, have seen the light of day. FMs where-in some ghosting rules just seem absurd. If you want to play it realistically, sometimes you should be able to ignore a rule because it doesn't make sense in that particular mission.
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Also, if a single ghost bust occurs anywhere in the mission, the ghost attempt has failed. Even if I "ghosted" other areas, I could not claim a ghost success for the mission.
I hope I didn't give the impression I disagree with that: on the contrary, that's absolutely right. Though (repeating myself) I still believe that if I ghost
parts of the mission and cut a banner in another part, I could claim a ghost success: depending on the scenario, of course.
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There's no need to make up ghosting rules because they already exist, and they're not intended to conform to every scenario, which is what makes ghosting fun and challenging.
Again: you can't use every rule anywhere! It would be unrealistical and absurd. It might become a little bit harder, but for me (and I think many others) not particular more fun.
I guess the thing I want to do is really 'live the game'. Ghosting missions sometimes really contributes with that. Though following rules to strictly is not living the game. For example: if Garrett finds a note which contains evidence that Garrett has broken in somewhere, he probably wants to burn it. But, official rules state that he isn't allowed to burn it.
I'm not saying the rules all are bad: by following them you can get very unique experiments. But in my opinion it is nitpickery to complain about a burnt note. Garrett is a thief after all, not a Keeper.
massimilianogoi on 12/12/2009 at 00:17
So c'mon, this is a "talebanish" interpretation! Too many rules to follow... IMO we can "slang" the ghost action as merely don't get caught, don't ruin anything, and get the 100% of loot.
With all that rules, neither in Eavesdropping or Sabotage @ Soulforge would be possible to ghost, since you have to make a wax stamp of the key, or you have to use the machines to create the device to use the Guiding Beacon.
Jah on 12/12/2009 at 16:20
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
Though (repeating myself) I still believe that if I ghost parts of the mission and cut a banner in another part, I could claim a ghost success: depending on the scenario, of course.
I think this is more of a terminological problem. Though I'm not a ghoster myself, my understanding is that the term "ghosting" is normally used to refer to playing under a very specific set of rules, as laid out by clayman/Lytha. I'm not saying that your style, or massi's, is any worse, but I think it's a little confusing and misleading to refer to it by a term that has a very specific, slightly different meaning, without mentioning that you've modified the rules.
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
Again: you can't use every rule anywhere! It would be unrealistical and absurd. It might become a little bit harder, but for me (and I think many others) not particular more fun.
From a roleplaying point of view, it might be unrealistic and absurd, but I don't think roleplaying is really the point here. Ghosting according to certain pre-set rules is supposed to be more of an achievement in itself - I don't think clayman or anyone else meant to suggest that it's necessarily a particularly "realistic" way of playing Thief. I agree that sometimes, breaking some of the rules may be more realistic and more importantly, more fun, but it's definitely a different style of play that isn't directly comparable to ghosting according to the "official" rules.
What I'm trying to say is that if you use the word "ghosting" to mean something other than the official rules, it would be a good idea to explain the differences from the get-go just to avoid confusion.
