ffox on 12/12/2009 at 17:16

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I think it would be better if the official rules "ghosting" was named something else. To my mind it's an inflexible way of playing although a small minority do enjoy it. Perhaps it should be referred to as "Clayman Rules"?

The rest of us could then use "ghosting " the way most of us do already - avoiding detection and not harming people or objects unnecessarily.

Jah on 12/12/2009 at 20:46

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Does anyone have links to both clayman's and Lytha's versions of ghosting rules? I've never really studied either. Also what other "codified" playing styles are there? I seem to recall Perfect Thief, which added some other restrictions like having to return all non-necessary items such as keys to their original locations after use. Anything else?

pavlovscat on 12/12/2009 at 23:16

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Ah, ffox, you beat me to it. ;)

smithpd on 13/12/2009 at 07:07

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This is wrong. Please don't try to re-write history.

The original ghosting was invented at the Eidos Thief forum, sometime in late 1999 or early 2000 I think, by clayman, Sneak, and a couple of others whose names I forget. I think clayman invented the term. The idea behind ghosting is that the player is not seen or heard. It is as if he were never there, i.e., the player is a ghost. I joined the ghosting group in 2000, soon after it started, and made several of the original ghost and Perfect Thief runs in T1 and T2.

In any case, Lytha was not involved in ghosting for quite some time after it was invented. She certainly had nothing to do with inventing ghosting, although credit must be given that she, like others, were inventing various modes of play based on different premises. Lytha never published a version of the ghost rules, as far as I know.

At about the same time as ghosting was being created (I am not sure which came first), Lytha invented the "(http://www.lytha.com/thief/lythaway/index.phtml) Lytha way", which was to get all the loot and complete a mission without any health damage to yourself or AI. Alerts were fine in Lytha mode. It was not based fundamentally on sneaking. Often the best strategy was to just run through the mission creating mayhem along the way. Lytha posted walkthroughs on her web site of doing every mission in Thief Gold in the Lytha way. At some point, maybe two years later I am guessing, Lytha got interested in ghost mode and completed some interesting runs, including ghosting the spiders at Baffords by a technique involving crates. Lytha hasn't posted at Eidos since we changed from UBB to VBulletin, so I can't dredge up any old posts of hers.

Just as a frame of reference, try the T1 mission Escape in Lytha way and official Ghost mode and let me know if you see any differences. It is not an adjustment. It is completely different.



Shame on you, ffox.:( Your suggestion is equivalent to Americans renaming "baseball" to "cricket" and suggesting that the English version of cricket be called something else, like "bouncey ball". Bah.

People at Eidos were ghosting for maybe 5 years before the term became popular at TTLG. The collective work of around 20 original ghosters at the Eidos forum went into creating the official rules after dozens of pages and a couple of years of forum discussions. Ghosting is not arbitrary. It has some history.

To use the term ghosting for anything but the official rules is to create a Tower of Babel, where nobody involved has any idea what anyone else is talking about. There would be no standard.

Seriously, folks. It is OK with me if you do not like ghosting or think it is too rigid for your taste. It is definitely not OK to take someone else's work, claim it as your own, and adopt their terminology with revised definitions. It is not OK to make up rules that please you and to call them "ghosting". That term has already been taken. Just call it something else, like "TTLG-sneaksie" mode. While you are about it, you might try to write down the rules of your mode of play mode rather than let it be a free-for-all that nobody understands. You may find that task is not so easy.

EDIT:

There are statements in this thread that the (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=30310) Official Ghost Rules were written by clayman. They were not. I compiled them 3-4 years after clayman's rules, changing some wording, and providing examples to clear up interpretations that had been the subject of lengthy discussions. As stated above, these "official rules" were a consensus of many people. Clayman endorsed these rules grudgingly. In the end, clayman preferred a much simpler version he called strict ghost that had no exceptions. In retrospect, we may have been better off to adopt those strict rules than to please everybody with the exceptions.

Clayman's rules (http://forums.eidosgames.com/old-ubb/Thief_Modes_of_Play_Final_rules.htm) may be found here. This is not the first time they were written. Just the first record I have of them.

smithpd on 13/12/2009 at 07:47

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No. You are wrong again. The 2004 compilation of the official rules are very close to clayman's original 2000 version. See EDIT to my above post for details (our posts crossed). In 2004 we did not make fundamental changes. We only provided needed clarification and officially adopted three years of unofficial small amendments, to which clayman was a party. In the end, clayman advocated a simpler version, but it was he, not the compilers, who wanted to change the "case law".

Thanks for saying I am like the Taliban.:eek: Nice. My analogy about "bouncy ball" still holds. You are just being insulting.

And please do not insist that the term ghosting is "generic", so you can interpret it as you like. That is your fabrication. You had no hand in creating it, and you are not in a position to redefine it or claim it as your own. I do not care how you play or anyone else plays Thief. I just think you have no right to subvert the term.