God.. they had it all in their hands and spoiled it completely... - by Vincent_21
vurt on 8/6/2006 at 10:37
Quote Posted by Dia
My feelings exactly regarding TDS.
Try being a massmurderer in T1-T2 and you'll see it's not even possible (game over in many/most missions) it's much more linear becuase they restrict your playing style and try to force you to play in a certain way.
Not that i dont enjoy ghosting/sneaking, but it's always fun play certain levels in a totaly different way.
Renault on 8/6/2006 at 12:05
Quote Posted by vurt
Try being a massmurderer in T1-T2 and you'll see it's not even possible (game over in many/most missions) it's much more linear becuase they restrict your playing style and try to force you to play in a certain way.
Not that i dont enjoy ghosting/sneaking, but it's always fun play certain levels in a totaly different way.
I think you just don't get it. In Thief, you're playing a well established character in Garrett, not some anonymous space marine or fantasy avatar. And Garrett for the most part does not kill people. If you're into mass murdering, you probably shouldn't be playing Thief.
In addition, the term "linear" usualy does not refer to playing style, it refers to the path the character takes to reach his goal. IMO, T1/T2 had more alternate routes and unique ways of winning a mission. In TDS, your choices are extremely limited and you are usually following one path to victory.
vurt on 8/6/2006 at 12:19
Quote Posted by Brother Renault
I think you just don't get it. In Thief, you're playing a well established character in Garrett, not some anonymous space marine or fantasy avatar. And Garrett for the most part does not kill people. If you're into mass murdering, you probably shouldn't be playing Thief.
I thought you, the player, was supposed to be Garrett, no? If the player cant decide how he/she wants to play the game then he could just watch some movie about a Thief instead. TDS was cleary a step in the right direction, more RPG'ish. AND you missed my last sentense; "Not that i dont enjoy ghosting/sneaking, but it's always fun play certain levels in a totaly different way."
There's linear gameplay and theres linear level design. I didnt find the levels in T1-T2 more or less linear than TDS. Many T1-T2 levels is just following a certain route without alternatives and without the choice if you want to kill someone or sneak past, so it really offers less gameplay wise.
New Horizon on 8/6/2006 at 12:20
Quote Posted by Brother Renault
I think you just don't get it. In Thief, you're playing a well established character in Garrett, not some anonymous space marine or fantasy avatar. And Garrett for the most part does not kill people. If you're into mass murdering, you probably shouldn't be playing Thief.
In addition, the term "linear" usualy does not refer to playing style, it refers to the path the character takes to reach his goal. IMO, T1/T2 had more alternate routes and unique ways of winning a mission. In TDS, your choices are extremely limited and you are usually following one path to victory.
Exactly! In most cases, if you play the game on 'EASY'...you're allowed to kill without the game ending. That's what the difficulty levels are for in most cases...if you're playing on Hard or Expert, then you have to accept the rules of thief gameplay...killing is not really supposed to be an option. If you associate linearity with not being able to slaughter the AI, especially when there are so many more creative ways to remove them from the equation...then you really don't get it.
~s:a:n:i:t:y~ on 8/6/2006 at 12:26
Quote Posted by New Horizon
If you associate linearity with not being able to slaughter the AI....
That's.....creative :cheeky:
New Horizon on 8/6/2006 at 12:29
Quote Posted by ~s:a:n:i:t:y~
That's.....creative :cheeky:
I try. :angel:
vurt on 8/6/2006 at 12:34
Quote Posted by New Horizon
If you associate linearity with not being able to slaughter the AI, especially when there are so many more creative ways to remove them from the equation...then you really don't get it.
No, you're still not reading this sentense (second time im quoting myself):
"Not that i dont enjoy ghosting/sneaking, but it's always fun play certain levels in a totaly different way." I know there are lot's of creative ways to distract enemies, i really love the oil flasks in TDS for example, i used them often, but it's fun to sometimes just go grazy and kill too, or just to try the level again and kill everyone just to see if you can make it without dying, more choices is never bad. And of course this equals less linear gameplay.
vurt on 8/6/2006 at 12:39
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Why is it that the most vocal TDS fans also seem to be the dumbest?
Why is it that ZB has nothing to say but chilidsh insults in many of his posts?
1. He's a troll.
2. He's dumb.
3. He's 14.
4. All of the above.
The winner gets a copy of TDS. ;)
New Horizon on 8/6/2006 at 13:59
Quote Posted by vurt
No, you're still not reading this sentense (second time im quoting myself):
"Not that i dont enjoy ghosting/sneaking, but it's always fun play certain levels in a totaly different way." I know there are lot's of creative ways to distract enemies, i really love the oil flasks in TDS for example, i used them often, but it's fun to sometimes just go grazy and kill too, or just to try the level again and kill everyone just to see if you can make it without dying, more choices is never bad. And of course this equals less linear gameplay.
I understood...but I also said that you can experience that type of gameplay by playing at a lower difficulty level. Sure, the AI aren't as challenging, but that's just par for the course. Higher difficulty usually means higher restrictions, and there is nothing wrong with that...it's a game afterall...it's supposed to challenge you...there are supposed to be rules. I'm surprised someone hasn't come along and said, "Yeah, that's right...more choice. Next time I play chess...I'm going to sweep all the pieces off with my hand...because that's how I wish to play". Anyway, my point is...you had the choice already, it was in the difficulty level you chose.
sparhawk on 8/6/2006 at 14:11
Quote Posted by ercles
If you had figured out the twist about who the bretheren and betrayor is, more importantly how this person was infiltrating the keeper council, props to you. Especially if you figured out how the final glyph worked before it was revealed.
I consider this as details. Most of the story were already given away. I realized that they tried to build up tension by hinting at some unspeakable terror, but while doing so, they totally scrweed it up. Instead of hinting at it, they just gave most of it away, so that such details did not really work after they were finally revealed.
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But I would be honestly interested what clues you pieced together to do so, as well as a quick headcount of those who managed to do so as well.
I played that game about 2 years ago, so you can't really expect me to still know all this. :)
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The myth part of the whole thing I meant was the quality of storytelling in older games, nostalgia means that people tend to look at games gone by through rose-tinted glasses.
That's right. But when I compare the most intense moments from TDP and from TDS, then I must say, there were not really any in TDS. On the other hand I clearly remember, that I was immediately hooked on TDP, because even the intro already caught my interest and made me wondering what this all is about. A short time I was not even sure wether the stuff is for real or not. This is storytelling as it should be IMO.
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I agree that graphics can help with a game, but I still love the older thief games even though they are looking very dated.
Same here. :)
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But you need to look no further than something like the half-life series for a great example of storytelling in modern games (especially HL2, which left the player very much to its own devices as far as figuring things out).
It depends on what aspects of storytelling you are talking about. I liked HL2 as a game. Especially the beginning was VERY intense, because it really gave you the feeling that you were accidently caught in some strange events. The very beginning, after the arrival at the train station and until you got your first gun, it was IMO one of the best introductions into a game. The constant chase which kept you on your toes all the time was really perfect. As far as the story goes, I don't even remember what it really was about, so that aspect of the storytelling did not really work for me. In most games the story is not really relevant anyway. Especially in shooters, most of the time a story feels as if it only provided because it is expected.
