SubJeff on 19/1/2018 at 06:37
Quote Posted by Brethren
SE, read the entire article. If you're still defending his behavior, then you're the only one on the planet doing so.
I'm not defending him.
I'm saying what everyone else is - that's not assault, it's a rubbish date with bad sex.
And we haven't heard his side of the story. But of course, that didn't matter to you.
Kolya on 19/1/2018 at 07:55
Quote Posted by Renzatic
#metoo is about the stand against the media moguls, the Hollywood actors, the CEOs of the world who have gotten away with being harassing bastards for far too long.
But Aziz? He was just an idiot who's crimes are nowhere near worthy enough to be put up alongside Weinstein, Spacey, and the like.
I don't think that's how#metoo worked. It was used from the start to accuse thousands of men, not just in Hollywood. If you read the original tweet by Alyssa Milano, then that was its purpose too. It was never limited to Hollywood or media moguls and actors.
That's just a perception from media reports.
But even so, the Aziz case was reported framed by#metoo, by practically everyone, accusers or defenders. The reason given that he is an actor who publicly supports the movement but privately was acting like a chauvinistic pig.
Saying now that this had nothing to do with (the original) #metoo and calling it whataboutism is a no-true-Scotsman argument.
icemann on 19/1/2018 at 08:17
The Aziz stuff never should have been made public. Public interest level = 0.
Renzatic on 19/1/2018 at 08:39
Quote Posted by Kolya
Saying now that this had nothing to do with (the original) #metoo and calling it whataboutism is a no-true-Scotsman argument.
D'wuh? I didn't engage in whataboutism at all, and I can't remember making a no-true-scotsman argument.
If you take #metoo as a stance against all men who act like immature brats entitled to sex, then yeah, Aziz is guilty, per the terms.
But from the way I've seen it framed, as rape or sexual harassment forced under threat of blacklisting/loss of job/what have you, his story is oh so slightly different. She risked nothing by saying no other than losing this one time chance. He offered a night out, dinner, then back to his place. She wasn't forced into the situation, nothing important was on the line, and leaving cost her nothing. Yeah, he did act like a pig, which is incredibly hypocritical considering he does try to play himself off as #woke. But with all things said and considered, it's all but a single disappointing, pretty creepy night.
I guess it all comes down the question of when we believe bad behavior steps beyond that fine line, and becomes outright abuse.
heywood on 19/1/2018 at 11:43
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Yeah. But still more relevant than the case that began the thread. It's all about using unrelated cases to try and push "innocent until proven guilty" outside of criminal law, protecting Weinstein and the like from any consequences whatsoever.
Quote Posted by icemann
The Aziz stuff never should have been made public. Public interest level = 0.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
But from the way I've seen it framed, as rape or sexual harassment forced under threat of blacklisting/loss of job/what have you, his story is oh so slightly different. She risked nothing by saying no other than losing this one time chance. He offered a night out, dinner, then back to his place. She wasn't forced into the situation, nothing important was on the line, and leaving cost her nothing. Yeah, he did act like a pig, which is incredibly hypocritical considering he does try to play himself off as #woke. But with all things said and considered, it's all but a single disappointing, pretty creepy night.
Agreed with all.
Renault on 19/1/2018 at 18:26
Quote Posted by SubJeff
And we haven't heard his side of the story. But of course, that didn't matter to you.
I've said several times that it all depends on whether she is telling the truth. But that fact that he's gone completely quiet aside from a very short PR response speaks volumes.
icemann on 19/1/2018 at 18:33
Silence should never be taken as an admission of guilt. James Franco has done the "silence is golden" approach to the claims made against him. Does that mean he's guilty? Hell no.
Innocent before being proven guilty. If we as a society ever get to the point where silence always = assumed guilty, then we're all damned.
Renault on 19/1/2018 at 19:17
This topic has come up a few times now, but I'll go there again - I am not a court of law. There are no consequences to anyone from me forming my own opinion. And to me, not denying accusations made against you is as good as saying you're guilty. If I were a judge deciding someone's legal fate, my opinion would of course not be enough. But that's not the case, I'm free to believe whatever I choose. Innocent before proven guilty is strictly a legal term.
Quote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: "Everyone charged with a
penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.".
And you're wrong about Franco - he did deny the accusations made against him. He claimed they were inaccurate.
(
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-entertainment-news-updates-2018-james-franco-says-actresses-allegations-1515605045-htmlstory.html)
Renzatic on 19/1/2018 at 19:39
Brethren's right in this instance. The court of public opinion is always going to be a thing. You're always have people who will assume the accused is either innocent or guilty for any number of arbitrary reasons. Whether you agree or disagree, we're all entitled to voice what we believe.
You can't expect people to stay silent, especially on matters as loaded and openly public as #metoo. The only thing you can hope for, the only thing you should expect, is that everyone remains levelheaded.
catbarf on 19/1/2018 at 20:02
Coming back to this thread after a couple weeks' hiatus, I just wanted to apologize to faetal, heywood, and Starker for getting heated and misinterpreting their posts. This topic is a little bit personal to me and I read too much into some posts. That's on me. Sorry guys.