Hammerites/Mechanists/Karras

Hammer Haunt on 12/2/2012 at 03:50

I'd have to say these factions are the most interesting in the Thief world

Goldmoon Dawn on 12/2/2012 at 13:20

I'de have to say that in the Thief world, since there are only three traditional factions to begin with, each faction is of equal importance and interest to the overall arc and flow of not only the story but the game world as a whole! I mean, without the Pagans there would/should be no Hammers. Having the third faction, the Keepers kind of ties the whole thing together in a cool and mysterious way. Kinda like the Dude's rug in Big Lebowski. It really tied the room together. :p

Hey, welcome to TTLG, um... *cough* Hammer Haunt. :cheeky:

cast on 12/2/2012 at 13:53

He joined us. NOW.

hi

Hammer Haunt on 12/2/2012 at 19:21

Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn

Thank you! JOIN US! JOIN US NOW!

Goldmoon Dawn on 12/2/2012 at 19:24

"Your soul cannot be saaaaaved".

:ebil:

Hammer Haunt on 12/2/2012 at 19:28

Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn

"Your soul cannot be saaaaaved".

:ebil:

...like spears into blood...

Keeper Jonas on 17/2/2012 at 03:22

"the foundations are defaced..." -Always my fav Haunt utterance.

The faithful of the Builder are an interesting lot. Notice that the trilogy never deals with the Builder directly. Whereas you unwittingly serve and then slay the Trickster, or at least his avatar Constantine, The Builder never says a single word to Garrett. Garrett never has any visions. And the fake Eye that killed the Trickster was manufactured by the Hammerites themselves, though I allow that it may well have had the Builder's magic about it. Holy water still works, but that is about it. And, of course, the Hammerites have the Builder's magic, which seems to be the strongest evidence of His actually being real. With the Builder's magic, the undead can be slain, Holy Symbols can be made and the Ghost of Brother Murus was saved.
It is fine that Father Karras, by the end psychotic, heard the Builder's voice. Clearly, he did not have the Builder's favor. The Trickster and Viktoria were out of the way. Aside from Keeper Atremus telling Garrett about Viktoria's assault on Soulforge Cathedral, the Keepers were less involved at the end of Thief TMA than they were at the end of Thief TDP, where they saved Garrett's life.
Nothing should have stopped the coming of the Builder's Paradise. And yet, Father Karras was defeated because Garrett was scurrying about like a mouse for a few hours. The Builder, unless He was as distracted by His own sense of power as the Trickster had been, did nothing to warn Father Karras about what Garrett was actually doing. Neither did He stretch forth His hand and smite Garrett before he could finish the second guiding beacon.
Obviously, there'd be no game if Garrett were slain by divine intervention. Okay, so why not fight the Builder and His host as we fought the Trickster and His otherworldly beasts? The Builder's Children don't count, they were wrought by the hand of man. Neither the Builder, nor any of His angels showed up when Father Karras needed Them the most.
I don't believe that Father Karras had the Builder's blessing. And it seems that the Builder does not walk among us anymore. The age of prophecy is over, probably long since, by the time the story of Thief TDP begins. There is probably a scriptural basis, or at least the ruling of an ecumenical council, as to when the age of prophecy did end, but unfortunately the creators of the game have not revealed any of that, yet. I really wish it were possible to read both the New Scripture of the Master Builder, and all the older Hammerite texts in full. All we have are excerpts.
I could type about Father Karras for hours so I've tried to talk instead about just one issue that deals with all three, the Hammers, the Mechanists and Father Karras. But yes all three are VERY interesting.

Goldmoon Dawn on 17/2/2012 at 05:03

That would be an awesome concept to explore in a Thief title though, eh? Finally facing the Builder himself! :eek:

Keeper Jonas on 17/2/2012 at 06:19

Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn

That would be an awesome concept to explore in a Thief title though, eh? Finally facing the Builder himself! :eek:

Indeed. I image it would probably have to follow the basic template of Garrett's final encounter with the Trickster. Logic seems to suggest that there would be some multiple step task which Garrett would need to complete to defeat the Builder, who'd either be chasing or looking for you.
A pitched battle would be EPIC, but I'm not sure it would be Thief and I can't see how Garrett would last long, to say nothing of winning.
Myself, I'd be more interested in the lead up to such a show down. As you said, a title to explore the concept. It would provide a chance to get more familiar with the Hammers from a different angle, though I don't know what that would be. Perhaps Garrett would need to ascend through heavenly spheres to finally rob the Builder's house itself. What a mission that would be. Angelic entities who could see through shadows or through the backs of their own heads perhaps? Who'd adjust their behavior based on actions you take while out of sight and hearing? It would certainly be a chance to up the stakes, make it harder and do something different. :thumb:

DJ Riff on 17/2/2012 at 06:50

Quote Posted by Keeper Jonas

Aside from Keeper Atremus telling Garrett about Viktoria's assault on Soulforge Cathedral, the Keepers were less involved at the end of Thief TMA than they were at the end of Thief TDP, where they saved Garrett's life.

They were just acting more subtly. We don't know everything that was going behind the scene.

Quote Posted by Keeper Jonas

The Builder, unless He was as distracted by His own sense of power as the Trickster had been, did nothing to warn Father Karras about what Garrett was actually doing. Neither did He stretch forth His hand and smite Garrett before he could finish the second guiding beacon.

It was a trial. If you're developing, say, a device which is supposed to work in highly irradiated environment, you will be testing it in a highly irradiated environment. You won't reduce the amount of radiation to "help" it pass the test, lest it will fail when given a real task. Karras said: "I shall reconsider every element of My plan - if any are weak, Karras shall make them sound." He failed. How can he be trusted to build the Builder's Paradise?