jtr7 on 18/6/2006 at 22:26

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Which brings up another choice for the "fifth element.":eek:

So, okay.... If there is no in-game symbol involving the four elements and/or a hand, then I know how I will proceed.

If it turns out that there is something tucked away in the Mages' Tower, I will have a built-in contingency for that. Okay then. Thanks for the help, peoples.


Yet another thought on the use of the hand and the symbols together:

All five digits are rooted in the palm.
1a. Ignoring the fact that the fingers are different sizes, there are usually four to a hand.
1b. Each finger represents one of the four elements (which finger matches which element is debatable).
2a. Humans have an opposable thumb.
2b. The thumb represents humans, since only humans have the opposable kind.
3. The thumb usually works with the fingers, bending in toward the palm to do something useful (Quiet, R Soul:sly:).

Briareos H on 20/6/2006 at 04:37

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Stony's right. From the Maw of Chaos level and that alone, we can safely assume 7 elements as 'canon' for pagans at least, in the Thief world.
There are the 4 usual elements, plus darkness and light and... the last one I can't remember. Does someone have the trickster ritual transcript somewhere ?

Emerald Wolf on 20/6/2006 at 08:16

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Also they can more or less be read as:

Stone = Earth
Flamesie = Fire
Stormsie = Air
Tidestream = Water
Leaf = Balance/Nature/"Neutrality" (?)
Darkness = Chaos/Death/"Evil" (?)
Borning = Order/Life/"Good" (?)

The last three are more or less open to interpretation IMO.

jtr7 on 20/6/2006 at 17:01

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For my fanfic, I'm fairly in agreement with Emerald Wolf's list. I don't claim to have it nailed down, to be sure, but I've made a choice that doesn't fly in the face of canon so I can work on crafting the story.

"Borning" = Birth = New Life, the opposite of which is...
"Death."
"Leaf," for a Pagan, would be an example of all things working together in harmony, thus, nature in balance.

So.... no new comments on the Hand Brotherhood symbology? The surprisingly rare screenshots I've seen of the Mage Towers don't show any scrollwork, banners, friezes, paintings, statues, or tile-work, or keystones of interest.

As an aside, I'd like to see screenshots of their elemental attacks, 'cause I have never seen nor experienced them. It may help with my fanfic, too.
Also, I'd like to see these pics, if they exist anymore:
(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48728) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48728

dlw6 on 20/6/2006 at 18:19

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The ritual in T1's last mission uses six elements (and it game me an excuse to listen to them again). From T1's SND.CRF/ConTrick/English, COMPOM#.WAV:

Plant/nature:
[SPOILER]Vine grow and twine, green and curl, chokes and bind, leaves unfurl, formsie (?) spine, tumble wall, wreathed in vine, cover all, leafies mine, call the vine, call the green, bring ye forth world be seen![/SPOILER]
Air:
[SPOILER]Storm black and blow, swirly gust, rain winds flow, pushing dust, stormclouds grow, darksie clouds lightning throw, misty shrouds, freezy snow, call the storm, call the gray, bring ye forth world's old way![/SPOILER]
Fire:
[SPOILER]Flame burning heat, fences charred, lazy sheet, blacken tar, manflesh meet, melting (inaudible) dance and leap, manfools' fear come to reap, call the fire, call the red, brings ye forth ash not dead![/SPOILER]
Water:
[SPOILER]Tide rise and fall, river flood, rain and squall, churning mud, dam break all, sea waves wash, swampy squall, sewer slosh, drainpipes stall, call the wave, call the blue, bring ye forth world anew![/SPOILER]
Earth:
[SPOILER]Stone grind and quake shatter, (inaudible) fall and shake, (inaudible) pile chip and flake, doughty (?) soil, windows break, earth toil, wall unmake, call earth, call the brown, brings ye forth world thrown down![/SPOILER]
Darkness:
[SPOILER]Night smother light, black break lamp, done with bright, dew and damp smother tight (?), dark and hide foolsie sight, stay inside, fear the night, call the dark, call the black, brings it forth I call it back! [/SPOILER]

It seems logical (if thaumaturgy can be considered so) that if Darkness were an element, it would have an opposite element of Light. The elements of Light and Dark may simply represent positive and negative energy, or they might represent aspects of purpose such as good and evil, law and chaos, or knowledge and ignorance. The wording of the Dark portion of the ritual could be interpreted as any of these, but his use of Dark but not Light in the ritual suggests that Dark is negative energy, chaos, and/or ignorance.

It further seems logical that Constantine and Viktoria might have great control of the element of Nature but this element might be difficult to control for those not allied with them. This could explain why the Hand Brotherhood limits itself to the best-known 4 elements. The Necromancers presumably specialise in Dark. The Hammers presumably master Light given their capability to counter necromantic magic (holy water and damaging undead with their weapons), and I expect that the Keepers would seek proficiency (if not mastery) in all of them.

At least, that's what makes sense to me.

Don