Xenith on 28/6/2006 at 09:26
there's one thing I don't get about pagans
(I might be mistaking but...)
the hammers keep saying about the undead that they're the tricksters work, but how come there aren't any undead where the pagans are? they should have some control over them, right?
and about the elements. if you can remember the thief 2 mission when Garett had to go to Angel Watch, the Necromancers Spire had that wierd book (when you opened it two zombies would appear behind you). there were the four elemnts drawed there (or so I think). maybe I can find a pic.
edit: yeah, here's a pic
you can see Air in the lower right, Fire in the upper left, Water in the upper right and Earth in the lower left
Inline Image:
http://up.kupatrix.org/p/59/PHTO0020.jpgedit 2: you can also see Light at the top of the main pillar and Dark at the bottom of that same pillar
in the middle... I don't know what it is... the seventh element?
Jarkko Ranta on 28/6/2006 at 10:15
It's annoying that the connection between Trickster's use of Elemental Magic and the Elemental Magic the Brotherhood uses is so undefined. Well, one could guess that the Hammers shun all kind of EM 'cause the Keepers gave the Talismans to two fractions unlikely to combine their Talismans to enter the Cathedral (that is, I think that's so 'cause I haven't played Gold). No hugs between the two groups. Also, in Constantine's manor there was this book about ancient sources of Nature Magic and how it could be found. Maybe the Elemental Magic Brotherhood uses has no connection to the Woodsie Lord.
Raven on 28/6/2006 at 11:45
I didn't even imagine there was any confusion... and as stated the book of AΣH states things quite neatly.
3 obvious “classes” of magic - glyphs, elemental and spiritual, which translate into the six elements.
Mages use (and study, and are obsessed with) the common elements. The keepers love their glyphs and the two factions (pagans and hammers) get their rocks off by immersing themselves in spiritual.
The (keepers) concept of balance in the OMs is introduced like as balanced scales, the pagans and the trickster on one side and the hammers and the builder on the other - with the keepers maintaining the balance.
The Mages came from outside the city and so possibly aren't even fully in the keepers equations, another take is that the hand mages are more of a collaboration of scholars mostly unaffiliated with each other except through there chosen elemental devotion - with necromancers (those who study spiritual magic) shunned. If any symbol was to be used then the hand would fit - the four main elements and then the thumb for “other” magic (the kind utilised by "uneducated folk" through "pray and devotion", or glyphs if you are a keeper. The brotherhood probably even think of it as a lesser study, just part of everyday life, expect when used as necromancy, then it is one to be shunned)
The Hammers at least know of, and even if they don't actively seek to create/dabble in elemental magic, they don't bother about removing the influence. The fact that they kept an elemental key in the cathedral presumably at the behest of the keepers means that they are at least not actively opposed to the idea of elemental magic. I also bet fire and water come in REAL handy to them. So while some forms of standard elemental magic is part of the hammers everyday life, they ultimately are devoted to spiritual magic - this is the source of their flying hammers and possibly their ability to create life like machinces (I wonder if the builder was actually involved and complicate in Karass' plan). It is magic born out of either their own self belief or from the power of their god. It is possible they don't even see it as magic. Spitiual magic is represented in the the book of ash as clear, it is light. So spiritual magic is basically IS one of the elements and because it is not hidden, it is clear and everywhere, anybody with enough will power can use spiritual/light/life magic [this is possibly why the undead rise wherever corruption is allowed to take hold (death and life magic twisting resulting in animated corpses)]
The pagans also know how to use and know of elemental magic. But again they are actually driven by spiritual magic (flying skulls, ankhs growing plants and the like - this could also be used to attribute the ability for zombie and haunts to form, but I prefer the notion that such undead are caused by unbalance and corruption and not specifically the trickster or the pagans).
If you are still reading this is where I am going - my basic point is that there are 6 types of magic, the 4 common elements fire, water, earth, air and then the other two, and these other two tie up with the other classes, glyph and spiritual. So the other elements are as shown in the book of ash "black and white", or maybe better termed "life and death" perhaps even “light and dark” - but note they are NOT "GOOD AND EVIL", no moral connotations should be applied (as stated in thief it is all about shades of grey when it come to morality) They are also not Order and Choas...
The pagans and hammers both use the life/white/light element - it is the “spiritual magic”. The keepers use the death/dark/black element - they do this mostly through the glyphs. The keepers glyphs either are born out of or indeed ARE one of the 6 elements (which would give the events of thief 3 even more significance, not only where the glyphs destroyed but perhaps with whole dark element!!!). The glyphs are possibly powered by the sentients, and perhaps this is what has been killing them off slowly over the ages! Perhaps they also tie back into the destruction of the underground city, a massive sacrifice/power gain or cataclysm of which the keepers have knowledge of and can uses this dark power. It is through the affinity or control of the dark/death/black... (ooh shadow could be another adjective too!) magic that the keepers can hide in the darkness and shadows so well.
So to perhaps make things clearer look at the potions
holy water = spiritual (light)
invisible potion = dark (so presumably it isn't only through the glyphs that the dark element exists)
slow fall = common elemental (air)
healing = spiritual (light - so again it isn't just the orders that have access to or affinity for light magic)
and so on...
As mentioned Good and Evil seem to come about through people actions, this is why it would have rocked to have a decent and well developed plot in thief 3. The keepers become fractured into good and evil and Garrett is the one to restore balance with help from the hammers AND the pagans, (spiritual/life/light v's glyph/dark/black/death) instead of the other way round like the first two games - glyphs/dark/black v's spiritual/light/life) I suppose in a very lame way this is what was happening with T:DS. Also if you consider that both karaas and the trickster wanted to bring about the environments where their preferred life could flourish/be dominate this is also in keeping.
I love this simple set up because from this idea many different subtleties can flow, but the basic 6 seemed to me like a given. - Crap I forgot order and chaos... but that is simply another tier and on the same scope as good and evil.
So the quotes from the trickster's ritual also ring true except that what he sees as nature and vines and stuff, it is actually him invoking the spiritual/life/light element. And as for the seven points, one is possibly a control aspect (and here we can insert our Choas/Order/Good/Evil tier of bullshit) - plus I have been watching a lot of stargate recently :D
Any other questions?
--Raven, self appointed keeper of the Canon, "what I say goes"
Xenith on 28/6/2006 at 13:12
nice Raven. really nice.:thumb: (the book of A(epsilon)H could be read ASH because -epsilon- means -s- in latin)
Vigil on 28/6/2006 at 16:36
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet">No it doesn't.</a> Furthermore the Σ character is sigma, not epsilon.
Xenith on 28/6/2006 at 17:01
yes it's sigma but if you look at the wiki table you'll notice it does mean "s"
Raven on 28/6/2006 at 17:13
...damn I had originally wrote sigma but changed it to epsilion d'oh.
I really should know my greeek alphabet (seriously)
Vigil on 28/6/2006 at 17:15
Quote Posted by Xenith
yes it's sigma but if you look at the wiki table you'll notice it does mean "s"
I know, just not Latin ;)
Xenith on 28/6/2006 at 17:43
yeah :sweat:
