jtr7 on 28/6/2006 at 19:59

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Vogelfrei: Thanks for the link. And as far as e-bay goes, do they have a pay by debit card option? Credit cards, checks, cash, or money orders aren't options for me (long story...).

Raven: Thanks for your contribution to this thread! Some thoughts--The book is officially called the Book of Ash, some mages threaten to return Garrett to the ashes, Azaran the Cruel uses the Book of Ash to translate himself to the Earth Plane (whether or not he succeeded is a mystery, and it would seem that the skeleton on the bed is his, but not necessarily), and Azaran has become a necromancer. Is there a direct connection between the Mages' concept of ash[es], the Earth Plane (which brings burial to mind), and necromancy?
Also, there is a comment that the talisman was left to the mages. What might that particular wording mean?

Xenith on 28/6/2006 at 21:12

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wait a second. I don't understand one thing. if we look at the drawing from the book of ash we see (considering what raven stated) the four common elements to the side (earth, water, fire, water) and we see Light on the top and dark on the bottom.

what's the meaning of the seventh element, the one in the middle where all of the other six seem to connect?

Raven on 28/6/2006 at 23:29

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jtr7 - hmm, I really wish we got to see thief 2 gold! It is it has been a long time since I visited the necromancer's tower and I am sure I have forgotten lots (except for those two surprise zombies lol). Perhaps the book of ash is a very powerful tome that Azaran recognised as powerful and merely for curiosity's sake (or maybe personal preference) he decided to travel to the earth plane. No real significance over other planes (he could have also visited the fire, water, air, light or dark plane perhaps). Then again, maybe the earth element IS more powerful (the middle finger in the brotherhoods hand symbol?) at least to humans and those that dwell on the earth. Perhaps it holds more power over humans (ashes to ashes dust to dust bunnies and such) - following this through perhaps for the fire elements (the glowing balls of flame under the city) fire is the most important, or for the wil-o-wisps air?

Solabusca -




I would argue that the prayer and clerical magic IS elemental, as represented by the element of light/life or as I termed it “spiritual”. While the pagans and hammers may THINK that they are praying and the power is purely from their “be all and end all” god, it is actually a manifestation of one of the elements. Also from this line the necromancers wouldn't be using only “dark” magic but also “life/light” magic, and probably a great deal of all the others too - earth to actually raise the corpse (where the body should now truly belong), fire, air and water so that the corpse is animated/physical/real/can move/can moan and breath... I imagine that it would specifically be the use of one of the “unofficial” colours (elements) of magic (either light or dark) that cause necromancers to be shunned by the brotherhood of the hand.



Aaahhh, but it IS!* While the glyphs may SEEM completely different and apart from the whole element discussion, I reckon that it would be better if they WERE part of the elemental scheme of things. They are infact* rooted in the mythos as the opposite to the type of magic that is so heavily used by the factions the keepers keep trying to keep in balance - the pagans and the hammers. As water is the opposite of fire and earth is the opposite of air so with the 5th and 6th elements, light and dark at opposite ends. It is possible that the glyphs are a specific MEDIUM of the dark element, as how the fire crystals are a medium of the fire element or the healing potion & holy water is a medium of the life/light element and how the prayers and rituals of the pagans (NOT THE TRICKSTERS RITUAL - it was very multi-disciplined) or hammers are a medium of the life/light element.

From the use that we have seen of the gylths it seems that they are always surrounded and utilised for the “dark”... perhaps a better term would be the “unseen”. The keepers hidden door ways, the ability to hide, the copious use of invisibility, the hags transformation ... remember that for many people “death” is the unseen part of life, it is in the dark. Ofcourse there is also the questions of the prophecies, this possibly has various answers. If the birth (and the death) of the glyphs are tied to the sacrifice of the sentients then the prophecies of the glyths could actually be a form of communication with the sentients, the knowledge coming from the sentients own knowledge of future events (and we just take for granted that the sentients are pretty powerful source possibly out with or at least above the whole colour scheme/ elemental lore we have got going here.) Or if we ignore the sentients (and more stupid spoiler tags) then seeing that the glyphs are rooted in the dark element it is not a surprise that they can communicate unseen times and trails of things to come to those that would know how to use them... (hehehe and I am stretching things a bit here... but this is perhaps the same kind of interaction experienced by those that focus on the spiritual/light/life elements, their answered prayers give them insight into current events - things that are out in the open and clear to see just now (while they think that it is their god speaking to them :D ))

---oh yeah I had forgot about that scheme in warhammer... unfortunately that was a long time ago and while my wood elfs are still upstairs unpainted, I could not afford both Durthu and the army book :(

Xenith - I am not sure about the seventh symbol, while it is in the centre it is tempting to argue that it is the soul... but I would actually consider that the soul was an aspect of the light and dark, this is why I was suggesting that the seventh element (the one at the centre of the being) or the seventh point in the tricksters star (the unspoken verse in his chant) is actually an “element” of control or intent, this is where the concepts of order/chaos/balance or even the main shades of evil reside in the thief universe.

*”Ahhh but it IS!!! --- only to the extent that I am the self appointed keeper of the canon ofcourse. Can't wait to read your post :D

Stony on 29/6/2006 at 02:48

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I have to agree, it is getting interesting. My only concern is that there's so little information to go on. :erg: For myself, I'm not sure where Keeper Glyphs fit into the magical scheme. The glyphs perform many functions, some of which have to do with darkness or keeping things hidden, but they don't seem to have much in common with Necromancy. Necromancy is not subtle in the Thief universe. It could just be that Runic magic and Elemental magic are two very different myths, and trying to make them coexist wasn't a good idea.

Stony

Solabusca on 29/6/2006 at 05:48

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Here's something I typed up at work, Raven. I'd post more, but I was dragged out to a work function afterwards, and free beer makes for a hard demon to best.

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First off - the book of Ash is an in-joke - it's a reference to the Evil Dead movies, and doesn't tie in to earth/dark magic.



Seven elements. There are seven elemental forces. They're even indicated in the art of the book - four corners and three levels on the human body. I'd say the middle is borning, the top is light, the bottom dark.

They're listed above in Constantine's ritual.

Given that the ritual and this image seem to tie together, it's a fairly good shot that they refer to the same thing.

Onto your assessment of the 'three classes' of magic:



Actually, mages use ALL the categories of magic. the Hand brotherhood are elementalists, but other mages are necromancers who channel dark magic - which we can also surmise gathers in the same way that the other elements do (thus causing random Zombie outbreaks).

Another possible supposition is that Vine arrows are the elemental manifestation of Leaf/Green energy.



This has only a very tenuous connection with the magical forces, friend. The Keepers are trying to maintain balance between ALL the power groups in the City, not the magic forces they use. This will include the Baron, the guilds, the Wardens and the like.



If the mages didn't factor into Keeper calculations about the City, then why did the Keepers give them an elemental keystone?



Most assuredly not true. The Hand brotherhood are a fraternal organization of mages; most certainly not the only magicians in the City.



No. No, no, no. The mages guild know that to practice dark magic invites corruption, invites danger. They bar their students from following that path (although they do maintain a library of information about it). The Mages have no knowledge of glyph magic.



Hammers work against the mages, friend Raven. They are heretics. I'm also going to disagree vehemently with some of your comments about the Hammerites and Elemental magic - as well as the place of spiritual magic in the elemental model.

I would posit that they are two entirely different forms of magic - channelling divine energy rather than the aetherial energies that are commonly found in the Thief setting.



I'd say this denotes a failure to understand both the nature of faith-based magic as well as necromantic magic.

You equate undead creatures (ie, haunts, skull-flinging apparitions and zombies) with the Trickster - which is nothing more than Hammerite propaganda. The only connection between necromancy and the Pagans we find in all three games is a Pagan who is also a Necromancer - and than may be more due to his magic wand (the Necromancer's Wand) than his studies. No undead infest the Maw or are in service to Constantine - if they were, he wouldn't need Garret to get the Eye out of the Old Quarter.



And here is where things fall completely apart. I think it only fair to say that I disagree vehemently with this suggestion assessment. Not only are there SEVEN elements listed, it is patently obvious that the Hammerites and Pagans are NOT using the same elemental forces. If anything, the Pagans utilize the Leaf/Nature element, the Hammers use Life/Light. This is IF they are not channelling divine/otherplanar energies - it is known that there are other Gods/Elder Beings/Forces in the Thief universe. The Trickster is directly referred to as ONE OF the Old Gods.

As to the suggestion that the Keepers make use of death magic or the dark element - this, to me, suggests that you're clutching at straws when trying to explain your theory. Really, the Glyphs seem to be a completely seperate substrata of magic - ancient, forgotten Precursor magic from the Guild of Enlightenment, perhaps. If anything, it supercedes the 7 elements, or works as an amalgamation of all of them.



The Keepers can walk unseen down a brightly lit busy street, conceal entire structures, and vanish from awarenessIt has bugger all to do with shadow - it suggests mentalism, suggestion and the like (a Jedi's mind-trick, on a grand scale, if you will), made permanent by the use of scribed glyphs.

Additionally, why do you mention magic in conjunction with potions? Yes, the potions have magical effects, but any alchemist (not mage) seem able to craft a potion - perhaps by utilizing latent magic energies in the ingredients used in the potion, true.

Anyways, more later - this is just off the top of my head whilst at work. I'll post supporting quotes/related threads later.

.j.