froghawk on 5/2/2015 at 22:33
And you still have yet to offer any real proof of that, despite an endless amount of posts about it. The ego motivation? Sure, everyone's got it in pretty much any internet debate, no matter what side they're on (and that includes you in wanting to feel smarter than the people who don't see 'the truth of SJWs'). But beyond that, nope.
Are you sure you used to be CCCToad? Because I don't remember him going off all the time on this subject.
Tony_Tarantula on 6/2/2015 at 02:41
For the latter, it's kind of useless to prove because there isn't any effective counter to the "no true scotsman" defense that's been used every time I present evidence of what drives them>
For the term "social justice" the term itself is inherently ambiguous. "Justice" is a rather nebulous concept and what it actually means in any specific instance is highly debatable. Race in the US provides numerous examples. To some people "justice" would be issuing reparations because it's a way to compensate for the grievances of the past, while to others it wouldn't be "justice" because it gives people an advantage simply for who they are instead of anything they've done to merit it.
My original challenge is still outstanding: Define what you mean by "Social Justice".
henke on 6/2/2015 at 05:43
Quote Posted by Manwe
And to deviate the thread further, if you want my opinion, yes, the whole trans movement is just fucked up. I mean we all know where it comes from (Corporate America, aka Hell on Earth), and we all know it essentially aims to destroy (quite litteraly) the last thing identifying us as humans and individuals. And we all welcome it with open arms as a liberating and progressive thing... Remind me why so many people who undergo sex reassignment commit suicide again? Ah, yes because the rest of the population is sooo intolerant. Certainly not because their body was butchered by unscrupulous surgeons, no that would be too simple an explanation.
If you think that monstrosity, taken straight out of 1984, fights for the rights of any minority, you're sadly mistaken. And I think it would be in the best interest of any sane person whether gay, lesbian, female or whatever else to distance themselves from this thing. But what do I know ? I'm just a straight white male (also now officially, <strike>homophobic/mysoginistic</strike> Nazi).
Wooooooow. This post makes Tony look like a normal well adjusted person.
I'd try refuting this stuff but I'm not sure there's anything I could say that'd soothe your fears of the looming dystopian future where we're all getting our dicks chopped off by Corporate America. Just hang in there buddy. :erg:
gkkiller on 6/2/2015 at 06:23
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Not only are most (about 3/4) of the ones I've met raging hypocrites (in private they talk about women in a way that is the epitome of "rape culture", don't like interact with black people, and only have token relationships with LGBT) but they don't really want equality. They just want to use people from "under priviliged" groups as tokens they can shut down debate with.
I'm sorry, so now I have to be part of the inner circle of the queer community to be a straight supporter? I find that laughable.
Quote Posted by Manwe
And to deviate the thread further, if you want my opinion, yes, the whole trans movement is just fucked up. I mean we all know where it comes from (Corporate America, aka Hell on Earth), and we all know it essentially aims to destroy (quite litteraly) the last thing identifying us as humans and individuals. And we all welcome it with open arms as a liberating and progressive thing... Remind me why so many people who undergo sex reassignment commit suicide again? Ah, yes because the rest of the population is sooo intolerant. Certainly not because their body was butchered by unscrupulous surgeons, no that would be too simple an explanation.
Yes, and there are countless transgendered people who don't undergo sex reassignment and are still persecuted. What's their excuse?
faetal on 6/2/2015 at 09:26
Quote Posted by Manwe
Probably, I have no idea what his opinions are on the matter, but I think in a sane society we should still be allowed to criticize the whole LGBTQXAZERTY movement without being burned alive.
You're entitled to opinions and others are entitled to roast you for it. Racism has been pushed to the very periphery of most modern societies because a cultural shift in public opinion put it there. When people don't feel comfortable making discriminatory comments about a minority, the language begins to disappear from the public space, which in a social species like humans makes a huge contribution to pushing the cultural norms away from discrimination. I get that a lot of very judgemental people are cross that it's becoming less tenable to express discriminatory views against people they view as being inferior or somehow erroneous, but that's kind of tough shit. If someone is homosexual, they shouldn't have that simple fact used against them as if it is some kind of flaw. Likewise trans-gender, female, black - any basic state of a person which is not a choice, it's just a feature of who they are.
Quote:
And to deviate the thread further, if you want my opinion, yes, the whole trans movement is just fucked up. I mean we all know where it comes from (Corporate America, aka Hell on Earth), and we all know it essentially aims to destroy (quite litteraly) the last thing identifying us as humans and individuals.
Citation sorely needed. Your opinion !=fact.
Quote:
And we all welcome it with open arms as a liberating and progressive thing... Remind me why so many people who undergo sex reassignment commit suicide again?
If you bothered to look into it, you'll find that it's quite psychologically demanding to be born as one sex but feel like the other. Some people handle it better than others. One thing which would probably reduce that kind of thing happening is better cultural understanding of the phenomenon and less marginalising of people who happen to be born like that.
Quote:
Ah, yes because the rest of the population is sooo intolerant. Certainly not because their body was butchered by unscrupulous surgeons, no that would be too simple an explanation.
It could be for a number of reasons, including, but not limited to:
* realising a mistake was made, that they regret going so far (I guess you're assuming it's 100% this)
* it wasn't enough - they still don't feel like a man/woman and that was their last and most extreme / expensive option
* the cost ruined them financially
* the people around them treat them like an inferior / grotesque human
Regardless of the reason, I don't see how society being more tolerant is going
hurt. Still, if you feel that being able to marginalise people is too important to lose, then make a decent case for why.
Quote:
If you think that monstrosity, taken straight out of 1984, fights for the rights of any minority, you're sadly mistaken. And I think it would be in the best interest of any sane person whether gay, lesbian, female or whatever else to distance themselves from this thing. But what do I know ? I'm just a straight white male (also now officially, <strike>homophobic/mysoginistic</strike> Nazi).
Finishing with a straw man, nice.
faetal on 6/2/2015 at 09:36
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
For the latter, it's kind of useless to prove because there isn't any effective counter to the "no true scotsman" defense that's been used every time I present evidence of what drives them>
For the term "social justice" the term itself is inherently ambiguous. "Justice" is a rather nebulous concept and what it actually means in any specific instance is highly debatable. Race in the US provides numerous examples. To some people "justice" would be issuing reparations because it's a way to compensate for the grievances of the past, while to others it wouldn't be "justice" because it gives people an advantage simply for who they are instead of anything they've done to merit it.
My original challenge is still outstanding: Define what you mean by "Social Justice".
What I take social justice to mean is a cultural gradient which seeks to reduce and eliminate discrimination of minorities by ostracising or ridiculing people whose prejudices are behind the times. Some people take it a lot further than that, but there's no sense judging the entire movement like that. As I mentioned further up, the way that racism,sexism and homophobia have been reduced from what they were in the middle of the 20th century is that people have gradually adjusted to the discovery that e.g. people are not inferior because they are black, that women actually aren't too emotional / irrational to vote, that homosexuals don't make the choice to be homosexual and more recently that trans-gender people are trans-gender inherently and again, not by some decision at some point in their lives.
When we arrive at these conclusions gradually and the knowledge diffuses into public consciousness, progressive people start to view with contempt those people who view their right to treat these people differently as more important than those people's rights to be given equal opportunities. Yes there is a recent internet phenomenon where some people decide they are going to champion something, probably in a self-conscious way to make themselves appear conscientious and a part of something they see as fashionable or whatever, but as long as the end result is the same: discriminatory language and opinions recede from public consciousness; I don't view them as a bigger problem than the discrimination.
If you do, explain why. The "most of the ones I've encountered" argument is a weak one and I'm not sure how valid it is since I'm not sure how much true scotsman filtering of your own you're applying to who you term a SJW. Here's a question - do you consider me one?
(sorry mods for going tangential, as per usual - maybe break up the thread?)
Tony_Tarantula on 6/2/2015 at 18:05
Quote Posted by faetal
What I take social justice to mean is a cultural gradient which seeks to reduce and eliminate discrimination of minorities by ostracising or ridiculing people whose prejudices are behind the times. Some people take it a lot further than that, but there's no sense judging the entire movement like that.
A fair definition, although it's less focused on "justice" and more focused on the destruction of political adversaries. I also judge movements by their net results and not by cherry picking which aspects of it I like the best.....which means that the impact of SJW crazies influences my judgement of the whole in the same way that evangelical crazies influence my assessment of Christianity.
I'd also point out that you're advocating bullying.
For you...not quite. Your attitudes are completely in line with theirs but you aren't nearly as vitriolic, nasty, or dumb as the mainstream SJW movement which kind of takes the "warrior" part out of SJW.
I'm also not as sure about the Trans aspect. While it's blatantly obvious that gay people are naturally gay, being "trans" requires the intervention of surgical procedures that until very recently did not exist. Prior to the last 20, maybe 30 years (out of the 60,000 + years that human civilization has existed) there was no such thing as a surgically trans person.
But yes, let's break up the thread. Hating on Hatred's a lot of fun.
GodzillaX8 on 6/2/2015 at 19:29
Quote Posted by henke
the looming dystopian future where we're all getting our dicks chopped off by Corporate America.
Is this the setting for Hatred 2?
Tony_Tarantula on 6/2/2015 at 19:37
No. It's the setting for real life.
Manwe on 6/2/2015 at 20:45
Quote Posted by faetal
Citation sorely needed. Your opinion !=fact.
Call it gut feeling, an opinion then.
Quote Posted by faetal
It could be for a number of reasons, including, but not limited to:
* realising a mistake was made, that they regret going so far (I guess you're assuming it's 100% this)
* it wasn't enough - they still don't feel like a man/woman and that was their last and most extreme / expensive option
* the cost ruined them financially
* the people around them treat them like an inferior / grotesque human
Or it could be the logical reason, you know the one dictated by common sense. But who am I kidding, only fascists would listen to reason.
And to those saying I am crazy, you people have to realize the whole world doesn't necessarily share your point of view on LGBT issues. In fact, to the rest of the world you guys are seen as the crazy ones. I mean, stuff like Assisted Reproductive Technology is still very much a taboo here in France. As for trans issues, it is an utterly alien concept to us as trans are virtually non-existant here. I have never heard of a single case of sex reassignment therapy in France, ever. Maybe it means they're poorly represented in the media, or maybe it just means they don't exist. If they do exist they're certainly a tiny minority (10, 100, 1000 maybe?) and as such their concerns are a trivial issue at best, compared to the concerns of the 65 million others. And in case you've lost touch with reality and don't know what those worries are, let me give you a hint, it's mainly about finding a job so they can put food on the table aka surviving (and we're the lucky ones in Europe, ask the Greeks or the Portuguese what they think about LGBT issues, or America for that matter).
As for fighting against intolerance, I don't know about the US but our legal system is already perfectly equipped to do that. Discrimination of any kind is strictly forbidden, and generally regarded as a morally bad thing to do. What more do you want ?
