Hey people! It's just a game... - by Nicker
Koki on 25/6/2011 at 07:18
Quote Posted by SD
And you know what really fucks me off is anti-abortionists. Those fucking fascists don't give a shit about babies, they just want to chain women to the sink. They think a woman's place is home raising a family (while father goes to work... none of this gay business), and any woman who shuns all that for a career is a selfish genocidal bitch. They're the Taliban with $100 haircuts. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
Camel?
Quote Posted by Harvester
Superstitious twaddle aside, the fact remains that when you abort a fetus, you're killing a lifeform (or a clump of cells for people who insist on not calling a fetus alive) that will one day be an actual living person. Shouldn't be too hard to understand why some people, be they religious or not, have a problem with that.
Condom?
CCCToad on 25/6/2011 at 10:47
Quote:
It's certainly impossible to resolve a conflict rationally when only one party is embracing rationality and the other is clinging onto superstitious bronze age twaddle about "souls"
Oh god. Here we go again, using rationality to make the irrational argument in the history of humanity "I don't need to make a solid argument because my side is rational, therefore anybody who disagrees with us is irratinonal and stupid"
Lets take that argument to its logical conclusion. Your argument is based on the underlying assumptions that because a fetus has no soul, it is OK to take its life and that there is no such thing as the soul.
Congragulations, it is now morally acceptable for me to come over to your house and Stab you if I deem that you don't contribute to society.
SD on 25/6/2011 at 13:07
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
I think they probably do.
Oh they "care", right until it's an actual, living, breathing human being. Then it's on its own.
These anti-abortionists are the same nutcases who fight welfare and universal healthcare tooth and nail, remember.
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Let's at least oppose the bad ideas that they are pushing, rather than making up caricatures, is what I'm saying.
Nobody needs to make up caricatures when the reality is so horrific.
Quote Posted by Harvester
Superstitious twaddle aside, the fact remains that when you abort a fetus, you're killing a lifeform (or a clump of cells for people who insist on not calling a fetus alive) that will one day be an actual living person. Shouldn't be too hard to understand why some people, be they religious or not, have a problem with that.
Oh, I find it incredibly hard to understand. The proteins and carbohydrates in this burrito might become the sperm that creates a zygote which eventually becomes my first child, but I'm not about to start imbuing my food with mystical significance. I'm not going to be shooting myself for jacking off either, incidentally.
You're a person when you're born, the end. Until that point, you're just part of another person. Their body, their call.
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Oh god. Here we go again, using rationality to make the irrational argument in the history of humanity "I don't need to make a solid argument because my side is rational, therefore anybody who disagrees with us is irratinonal and stupid"
Anyone who exclusively uses irrational and stupid arguments is irrational and stupid. That's what those of us who aren't irrational and stupid call a tautology.
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Lets take that argument to its logical conclusion. Your argument is based on the underlying assumptions that because a fetus has no soul, it is OK to take its life and that there is no such thing as the soul.
Actually, my argument is rather more than that, although the scientific fact that souls do not exist is, obviously, a part of it.
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Congragulations, it is now morally acceptable for me to come over to your house and Stab you if I deem that you don't contribute to society.
My advice to you would be to learn what logic is, and then understand how to apply it to discussions.
Chimpy Chompy on 25/6/2011 at 13:49
Quote Posted by SD
These anti-abortionists are the same nutcases who fight welfare and universal healthcare tooth and nail, remember.
I do get that, but I don't believe they're actually sat there thinking it's okay for poor kids to starve. Again I reckon it must be some personal responsibilty thing gone wrong (and not paying sufficient attention to what happens in reality), ie placing blame on easy scapegoats and refusing to accept social responsibility.
So yeah there is inconsistency but that doesn't mean it's accurate to yell about fascists.
Quote:
You're a person when you're born, the end. Until that point, you're just part of another person. Their body, their call.
So, free access to abortion (for any reason), 1 week before the birth is due?
dexterward on 25/6/2011 at 13:53
Quote Posted by SD
Actually, my argument is rather more than that, although the scientific fact that souls do not exist is, obviously, a part of it.
Hm, I must`ve missed when they announced this peer-reviewed paper ;)
Don`t get me wrong, I also hate religious zealots & am generally pro-abortion. But it`s not as clear cut as you paint. On topic of "soul" - or "consciousness" perhaps - science has still nothing definite to say. And yes, I am aware of all the progress in neurology, brain chemistry/mapping and all that. It`s great stuff but nowhere near stating that "there is no soul".
"You're a person when you're born, the end." ...nah, too simplistic as well. This "conscious when popped out" angle is rather unscientific. What, like fresh air starts your brain up or something?
CCCToad on 25/6/2011 at 14:29
Quote:
Anyone who exclusively uses irrational and stupid arguments is irrational and stupid. That's what those of us who aren't irrational and stupid call a tautology.
So basically "you're wrong because you're wrong".
I'm sure you'll do just fine at convincing people to more enlightened viewpoints with that argument.
Quote:
And you know what really fucks me off is anti-abortionists. Those fucking fascists don't give a shit about babies, they just want to chain women to the sink. They think a woman's place is home raising a family (while father goes to work... none of this gay business), and any woman who shuns all that for a career is a selfish genocidal bitch. They're the Taliban with $100 haircuts. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.
Do you have anything better to do than to throw out the same, trite hateful talking points you've been brainwashed with? For Chrissakes you look about as stupid as Focus on the Family right now.
edit: And lumping them in the Taliban simply reveals that you yourself are an extremist to the point you can't even differentiate between religious groups. When was the last time you were roughed up for being an atheist and refusing to accept their radical version of Christianity?
CCCToad on 25/6/2011 at 14:42
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Make no mistake, these are the same people who espouse the Quiverfull nonsense. And when we could reduce the planets population to a workable 1.6 billion in 100 years if everyone only had one child, those who deliberately work against that concept are actually, actively, and possibly irrevocably accelerating the destruction of our current reality.
.
Really, what happens in the Western World is irrelevant to global population growth. In a majority of 1st world countries the birth rate is below replacement level, its in 3rd world countries where we have relatively little influence that the population is exploding.
Also, don't be too quick to jump on that bandwagon. Look up some of the proposed "solutions" for it. Not the conspiracy theories, the papers you can download from the various think-tank's websites. Some of them will scare the shit out of any reasonable person.
edit: of course, another way we could cull the population is stop any and all humanitarian intervention. Genocide is a good thing because it saves the planet from overpopulation.
SD on 25/6/2011 at 15:16
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
I do get that, but I don't believe they're actually sat there thinking "eh, fuck the children"
They might as well be.
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
So yeah there is inconsistency but that doesn't mean it's accurate to yell about fascists.
No, (
http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html) of course not.
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
So, free access to abortion (for any reason), 1 week before the birth is due?
In theory I wouldn't have an issue with it. I don't believe there is a point at which the sovereignty of the individual is overridden by something growing inside of the individual. In practice, it would probably be sensible to have a cut off period around 8 months pregnancy, unless there are complications.
Quote Posted by dexterward
"You're a person when you're born, the end." ...nah, too simplistic as well.
What's simplistic about it? Try to get a social security number or birth certificate for something that hasn't been born yet and see how successful you are getting the authorities to recognise it as a person.
Quote Posted by dexterward
"This "conscious when popped out" angle is rather unscientific. What, like fresh air starts your brain up or something?
You probably should investigate the extraordinary changes that (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_to_extrauterine_life) occur at childbirth. It really is like starting a computer up.
Chimpy Chompy on 25/6/2011 at 15:37
I think you're kinda trivialising the experiences of people who live under the actual Taliban, or fascists or whatever.
Quote:
In theory I wouldn't have an issue with it.
I would. At that stage... I read your wiki link but I can't see enough of a diffence between 1 week before birth and 1 week after. Same entity, different support mechanisms.
Not that I think "personhood at conception" is plausible either. So I guess we should make safe accessible abortion available so women can have it as soon as possible, and avoid huge moral problems later.
Briareos H on 25/6/2011 at 15:37
^ pathetically full of bullshit, unable to get over a manichean and simplistic view of everything (even science). Ready as you are to fight to death for your uninformed ideas, you don't even realise how hypocritically close you are to the religious mechanisms of thinking you condemn so much. It reaches the point where thinking about funny one-liner replies isn't actually interesting any more.
Just as an aside, perception and proprioceptive centers are activated during gestation long before delivery.
