irR4tiOn4L on 23/1/2005 at 05:02

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i dunno bought this rationale linking the 'keeper enforcers' and their lack of action in regards to the old quarter incident - seems more like an arbitrary design decision by ion storm. In this sense our musings are just trying to reconstruct what LGS would have envisioned as happening

I dont remember too much from the cathedral, but if i do remember correctly, then there was a sudden outbreak of undead caused by the eye - perhaps raised by the eye - which went about murdering the other hammers in their sleep - and if i remember correctly, turning them undead.

As this plague spread, the only viable explanation is that those killed were turned undead in some way, as there was a distinct lack of bodies from this fight in the mission (though this is poor evidence and could be a design decision) and i doubt that the plague would have such momentum otherwise.

I would say that while some undead in the thief universe raise autonomously due to possible guilt or unfinished business, the GREAT majority would fit into this dark magic category - the undead in the cathedral was a sudden outbreak caused by either the eyes dark magic or other dark magic.

Other evidence can be found in Life of the Party, where in a certain house along the way, there are weird glyphs and magic and fires all over the place and raised zombies - that is, necromancy.

Oh and i have tried to stick to what seems the most probable explanation LGS had for these bigger design decisions.. as nice a theory as it is, i doubt LGS had envisioned zombie raising wirelessly powered lights to such depth.. but they went into quite a bit of detail about how the eye raised/caused the undead in the cathedral and the weird necromancy glyphs in life the party speak for themselves.. thats pretty good evidence as to what LGS had intended.

lokki on 23/1/2005 at 07:18

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sorry to butt in...

I have to say it's threads like this that keep me hanging around TTLG. I've not come across any other game whose community supports so much of the 'universe' in such a healthy way (in sharp contrast to the unhealthy addictions found in many online RPGs). These discussions add a lot to the games for me, and I really appreciate the ability this forum has to be geeky, rational, intelligent and still get completely immersed and thoroughly enjoy not only the games, but the stories. Yet, nobody seems to lose touch with reality.

Thanks ;)

As for the zombies and their raison d'etre, IRL the usual belief is that they are generally conjured (e.g., many voodoo cults believe the priests may have this ability), while spirits can be brought from any general malaise - wrongful or violent death, unfinished business, revenge, etc. In the context of Garret's world, I'd always figured they were people who hadn't quite died all the way, and had been like that for some time, stuck.

For example, in mines and other subterranian areas, maybe explorers or pillagers who never completed a task, simply let thier souls go and left the bodies behind. The bodies didn't know enough to die properly ;)

Near cemetaries, there were recorded cases in history of people being catatonic from some disease and buried alive.* Some of these could have been people in comas or in deep states of unconsciousness that were buried alive, or left for dead.

But, I like the notion that it could be a combination of things - conjuring, disease, wrongful death...


(*interesting side note - there are stories of villages who buried the dead with a string tied to a bell, which was left above ground. in case of live burial, the hope was the 'dead' would ring the bell to summon help on waking).

Raven on 23/1/2005 at 11:02

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Remember that thief 2 gold was going to have a book of the dead and a necromancy mission (perhaps even a whole necromancy sub plot). I have always liked to think that the necromancers are outcasts from the brotherhood of the hand (to such an extent that I keep meaning to create a FM about it). Haven’t these guys been hanging around the city in one from or another for a very long time (in T:TDP they had eventually got themselves together in the from of a school yeah?, but they could have been visiting the city for years.) They have connection to the lava city don't they? (spot the person who hasn’t completed T:G properly) Perhaps the eye was original connected to them somehow and this is why it is associated with the undead. The crown ended up with lizard men (water, or underground earth) the paw was with the pagans, is there some tenuous connection there? Hey, one relic for each element (finger?) of the brotherhood, fire, water, earth, air, and death... heart, crown, paw, chalice and... was there another one? This ofcourse would have to be VERY far back in history, cause the relics are also associated with the trickster, and with heavily with the keepers as well, everyone seems to have there grubby hands on them some how. I still love the idea that thief is set on middle earth… many many millennium after LOTR…. We are talking about the 5th 6th or even 7th age. (do a search to find out about those crazy ideas)

Macsen on 23/1/2005 at 15:24

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I've been thinking about creating an entire FM campaign about the necromancers, set during the time of the Hammerite Imperium. I'll probably do it, perhaps with the Dark Mod (which I think is great), once my level on HI is complete or the Dark Mod becomes available. I hear the Dark Mod team are going to create a campaign too. :)

Morpheus on 23/1/2005 at 20:06

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That's an absolute lie since TDS had several LGS developers working on it throughout the project. It's story is no less valid since the very same person that wrote the other Thief games' stories and dialogue, Terry Brosius, wrote TDS's. They even had the same sound and music person, Eric Brosius. Randy left at the very end. You are completely ignorant.