Jarvis on 26/2/2009 at 16:55
I think your take on the Thieves is a bit off. They aren't a faction in and of themselves. You could make an argument for them, but to do so you would have to include the City Wardens. I don't know a lot about the Wardens themselves, other than that they are very corrupt and maintain the majority of organized crime in the City. Ramirez was one of them, yes? If not then at least he was higher on the pecking order than Bafford.
That's an aspect of Garrett's life that I wish we got to spend more time with. The fact that he is a free agent. The treatment he refers to in Assassins makes it sound as if independent thieves don't survive long, and if they do it's because they're either the best, or they keep their heads down and limit their work to picking pockets and robbing the poor.
Garrett wasn't very pinned down by the threat of the Wardens and their crime organizations, in part because he was capable of taking the fight directly to the Wardens themselves (assuming Ramirez was indeed a warden). A lot of other thieves probably were though, and I get the sense that the Wardens were a very oppressive and ever present force in the City, and everyone felt it. Probably even the common citizen. Thief 2 didn't explore this idea, but I'm willing to bet Truart and his family were on one of the Warden's payrolls as well.
I also got the impression that the Wardens weren't friendly with one another. That adds another layer of complexity and intrigue. I do wish we could a closer look at those guys. I think the story potential there is awesome.
R Soul on 26/2/2009 at 16:59
If Truart was on their payroll, he wouldn't have been for much longer after leading a raid on the Overlord's Fancy. That's mentioned in Ambush if you find the right group of bluecoats.
SneakyJack on 26/2/2009 at 18:41
Quote:
I'm interested in people's thoughts on the Keepers. I don't know what to make of them: wise, cunning, snobbish, bureaucratic, and of course a Machiavellian approach to higher-concept problems. Interesting mix. Do I love them or hate them? Are they really out for the good of the City? I think so, when all is said and done.
Strangely enough I've always found them to be a controlling self serving faction that uses excuses like "the prophesies" to make things turn out the way they think they should. Shadowy pupper masters, if you will.
Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall
please don't do that...
I have no idea why my thoughts on a particular faction seems to bother so many people. :laff:
Quote:
FMs are not official canon but you're entitled to your own opinions i suppose.
It was just an opinion. Seems to be a hard theory to grasp here at times, and I don't know why.
Quote:
I think your take on the Thieves is a bit off. They aren't a faction in and of themselves. You could make an argument for them, but to do so you would have to include the City Wardens. I don't know a lot about the Wardens themselves, other than that they are very corrupt and maintain the majority of organized crime in the City. Ramirez was one of them, yes? If not then at least he was higher on the pecking order than Bafford.
As far as the "official Thief canon" that everyone is grasping to goes - you are probably correct. This thread is simply about personal view after you've played the game and its fan missions - nothing more. The whole point is to share the opinions you have that differ from what they are meant to be by the developers - And I think that's what you are doing here so thank you for your contribution!
Quote:
I also got the impression that the Wardens weren't friendly with one another. That adds another layer of complexity and intrigue. I do wish we could a closer look at those guys. I think the story potential there is awesome.
I completely agree! :thumb:
I would love to see more about the motivation behind the Thieves and those who they work for and work under. The faction itself for me is surrounded in more mystery than the keepers themselves, and I find the Thieves even more interesting.
Great post Jarvis and thanks!
Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 19:13
I say "don't do that" because I don't think that you want this thread to turn into a discussion over whether anything from a fan mission could "become" canon. If you really want to discuss opinions about the factions, I suggest you do not lay in bait to draw people into a completely different conversation.
When you lay out a premise to a discussion and throw in one highly controversial statement of questionable relevance to your own discussion, you can't be surprised when most people ignore your actual topic and instead zero in on the controversial statement.
Herr_Garrett on 26/2/2009 at 19:25
Hammerites: ROCK!
Pagans: ROCK, too, but towards the end in a silly kind of way...
Keepers: RULE!
I know it's not really sophisticated, but, then again, feelings aren't sophisticated.
I'd be really hard put if I had to choose between them.
SneakyJack on 26/2/2009 at 19:30
Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall
I say "don't do that" because I don't think that you want this thread to turn into a discussion over whether anything from a fan mission could "become" canon. If you really want to discuss opinions about the factions, I suggest you do not lay in bait to draw people into a completely different conversation.
When you lay out a premise to a discussion and throw in one highly controversial statement of questionable relevance to your own discussion, you can't be surprised when most people ignore your actual topic and instead zero in on the controversial statement.
I didn't know it was 'bait' or a controversial statement - I think if that is the case people take the game far too seriously. I just threw that in there because I was thankful for a FM author taking the time to flesh out a faction so well that it really stuck with me - hence the opinion part. Noted for next time though, and thanks. :D
Quote:
Hammerites: ROCK!
Pagans: ROCK, too, but towards the end in a silly kind of way...
Keepers: RULE!
I know it's not really sophisticated, but, then again, feelings aren't sophisticated.
:laff:
Great post, and I have to agree with you about the Hammers. Everything about them just screams "awesome" from the way they talk to their decorations and symbols. Probably my favorite faction to battle with due to the hilarious things they say when you rile them up.
Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 19:37
People do take the game very seriously. ;)
Are you saying this is a bad thing? :D
Personally I think a great idea for either this thread or another thread would be a look at the way FM authors interpret the factions differently from what we see in the OMs, and how author-invented factions mesh in with the existing ones. That should keep the canon/fanon hardliners at bay.
(But that discussion ought to be in the FM forum...)
SneakyJack on 26/2/2009 at 19:42
Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall
People
do take the game
very seriously. ;)
Are you saying this is a
bad thing? :D
If that leaves the game closed for opinion and open interpretation that is taking it a bit too seriously ;)
Otherwise, not at all. I myself have four projects going at once for this forum (so you could call me serious about the games of course) but I'm more than willing to post in any and all threads that want to have fun with the Thief canon, share opinions or just ask "what if?" If you stick to by-the-book for too long, things get boring.
Think of how different the fan mission landscape would be if folks only stuck by thief canon and never created anything new - boring right? :D
I originally had this posted in the General Fan Mission Megathread but thought it might have legs on its own as a topic. If people would just suspend their disbelief a bit and have fun with it - it could be alot more fun. Its not as hard as some like to make it :laff:
jtr7 on 26/2/2009 at 19:44
Quote Posted by SneakyJack
I didn't ask for a detailed analysis on how the developers meant for the factions to play out - I asked for the personal views of people only. I don't see how those two threads have anything to do with each other, really.
How unpleasant. :(
People in that thread ARE expressing personal opinions on the factions...but in an analytical way. Also, you will have trouble here because you are expressing opinions
as fact, and not being clear in your original wording that you don't mean it that way, and then affirming our false impression, before insulting our intelligence and positive attempts to contribute.
Fanon is not canon and fanon is very much appreciated and a driving force of this community. Enjoy fanon and enjoy canon, but don't redefine the words.
Don't worry. I'm quite done. :erg:
SneakyJack on 26/2/2009 at 19:47
Quote Posted by jtr7
How unpleasant. :(
People in that thread ARE expressing personal opinions on the factions...but in an analytical way. Also, you will have trouble here because you are expressing opinions
as fact, and not being clear in your original wording that you don't mean it that way, and then affirming our false impression, before insulting our intelligence and positive attempts to contribute.
Don't worry. I'm quite done. :erg:
I wasn't trying to be unpleasant, sorry. :(
I tried making it clear that this was only about personal opinion and had nothing to do with how the developers meant factions to be seen and that I was just sharing how I viewed them. I even added "personally" to the thread title to help make it more clear - I didn't mean to make it sound like I was being grumpy about anything. I read the first few pages of that thread you linked and they seemed to be super serious and analytical in that thread - something I was trying to do the exact opposite of here. Maybe I'll just let this thread die - I apparently didn't realize how seriously these things are taken.
My apologies, I didn't mean to come off as having a go at you. :D
