How do you (personally) view the factions in Thief?

Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 19:59

We're not talking about the game being open to interpretation or not. I don't think that's ever been in danger. What's more, I think you can no more stop the Thief-Gen'ers from taking canon extremely seriously as you can decide that something from an FM is canon. Neither are within anyone's power. :D

Well, that is unless you get a job working on Thief 4 and you sneak in things from FMs. :thumb:

jtr7 on 26/2/2009 at 20:01

Sorry, SJ. We just need a clear distinction between fanon and canon, personal and official to keep misunderstandings to a minimum. The seriousness comes from not knowing if a person is believing a fiction to be a fact, not necessarily the subject matter.:)

SneakyJack on 26/2/2009 at 20:06

Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall

I guess I could have been more clear that I was joking, but I made it clear that it was a non-canon faction created by A mission author.

Quote:

The Order Of The Souls: Perhaps the most frightening and mysterious faction in the Thief universe, these guys were created by DrK for his Rocksbourg series and in my mind are now officially part of Thief canon. They flourish in darkness and harness supernatural powers and creations - and use fear to their advantage. With their long and somewhat mysterious history and interesting take on things - you can tell that they are not only fighting for their own survival (and staying hidden and protected) but are also out to.. advance their own agenda one way or another. I can't wait to see how this faction evolves in Rocksbourg 4 and where they end up - perhaps the most interesting Thief faction to me.

I think it'd be best if this thread was just closed and I'll go back to the fan mission forum. :D

Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 20:21

I still think you've hit on a few interesting discussion topics to be had. What fan-made factions do you think could stand toe to toe with the canon ones? Do you think fanon could ever become canon? Do you feel that any FM author has improved upon any canon faction? How serious is taking Thief too seriously?

Jarvis on 26/2/2009 at 21:01

Quote Posted by R Soul

If Truart was on their payroll, he wouldn't have been for much longer after leading a raid on the Overlord's Fancy. That's mentioned in Ambush if you find the right group of bluecoats.

I had considered this, but I also mentioned that the Wardens are not friendly. If Truart was on a Warden's payroll, then he could easily sic Truart on the Overlord Fancy in an attempt to damage the gains of an opposing Warden. Truart seemed very afraid of having his name sullied by controversy, despite his obvious lack of morality or any sign of hesitancy to commit atrocity all for his own gain.

No man standing completely alone could get away with such obvious and blatant actions for very long before someone discovered the atrocities and started talking. You need a lot of power and influence to keep that kind of thing down. That's what I'm talking about. It seems reasonable to me that he was doing some Warden's dirty work in exchange for backing and protection. Perhaps truat was trying to position himself into the ranks of the Wardens. Maybe he was promised to replace whatever warden he was helped bring down by raiding the Overlord's Fancy.

Truat wasn't the only party involved in the atrocities I speak of though. Karras was as vulnerable as he was. Consider how fast Karras grew the Mechanist order. No religion grows that fast and explosively on merit of its beliefs alone. Especially when it's doing so in direct defiance of the old religion. It would need a lot of financial backing to give it the "pizazz" to draw in the nobles like it did. It seems very possible to me that even the Mechanist order was backed by a Warden. Probably the same Warden that back Truart, which may well be how Traurt met Karras and arranged their dealings.

That doesn't mean that the Warden knew precisely what Karras and Truart were doing. He would see Truart as a useful tool for manipulating and controlling law enforcement. Karras would be a great source of revenue as well as a great way to manipulate the belief structure of the masses to better suit his needs. After all, ostensibly Karras was far more agreeable and flexible than the old Hammerite order (though I'm sure the Warden wouldn't know of Karras' plan to kill all life).

Anyway, that's all wild speculation and such ramblings could go on and on. The point here is that I think that's a facet of the Thief universe that is under appreciated.

Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 21:12

I seem to remember a note in Warden Affairs commenting on how Truart had no idea that the officers in that division (which was supposed to be keeping an eye on warden activity) were working for the wardens themselves. I think that Truart was just a political stooge of use to Karras and had no association with the wardens at all.

Horribly underdeveloped.

Jarvis on 26/2/2009 at 21:43

Oh yeah, that's right. That little hidden away corner of the headquarters... I had forgotten about those guys. I can't remember the finer details, but I think you're right.

The illustration, no matter how incorrect, still communicates a message though. The Baron has been gone a long time, and these guys stepped in to fill the power vacuum. I attribute the hopelessness the City seems to exude in part to the Wardens and their shady politics. Indeed, quite underdeveloped.

Digital Nightfall on 26/2/2009 at 21:51

I wouldn't say that is has much to do with the absence of the baron. I imagine it's much more like the mafia families in New York or the mobs of Chicago. They exist in the underworld, protected from the lawful government due to the buying and selling of corrupted government and law enforcement officials.

We know so little about the lawful government of The City that I tend to believe it's not because LGS never got around to illustrating them, but because they believed there was nothing there of interest to illustrate.

Renault on 26/2/2009 at 22:31

I don't mean to belabor the point, but I think saying something like this:

Quote Posted by SneakyJack

The Order Of The Souls:in my mind are now officially part of Thief canon.

Is akin to saying "In my mind, Bugs Bunny shows up in The Bible at the Last Supper."

Its not an opinion thing, it's just simply not true. No fan, no matter how diehard, can ever provide anything official to the Thief universe. Opinions have nothing to do with it. Nothing against DrK at all, the faction he created is extremely interesting. But it's just one person's vision.

Quote:

The Keepers: From what I've seen in the original missions and fan missions alike - The Keepers are the most self centered bunch in Thief. They rely on their mystery and "prophecies" to control people like Garrett and cause them to do things they otherwise wouldn't do in order to shape the fate of the world and the things in it.

Personally, I've always thought The Keepers were the most interesting faction in the game, mainly because of their mysterious ways. You can't predict what they will do. They're a true shade of gray where the other factions are either black or white. As far as being self-centered, I think they're the opposite - they'll make great sacrifices to keep The City in balance. I always thought it would be cool if someone created an FM detailing their origins.

Lovecraftian on 26/2/2009 at 22:35

Quote Posted by SneakyJack

It was just an opinion. Seems to be a hard theory to grasp here at times, and I don't know why.

Fair enough. Hope i didn't irritate you. :D

Now for my views!

Hammerites: I don't find the hammers 'noble' at all. They may have created a lot of tech, but they're thoroughly and dogmatically conservative. IIRC, the hammers are reluctant to improve or release a lot of new technology; that was Karras' gripe with them in the first place. They're also fanatical snobs, and acted like an unofficial police before the rise of the Trickster, imprisoning and torturing people for merely speaking slander. I also get the impression that they probably exploit mysticism and hell-and-damnation techniques in their sermons - much like the pre second vatican council Roman Catholic Church.

Mechanists: By far the most interesting faction IMO. Not to mention a bunch of genocidal fanatics who pretended to be progressive when they actually sacrificed their entire morality. I'd love to see an FM campaign charting their rise. Karras is a psychologists joy - he's the reason i prefer Thief II to the first, as along the way we get to see inside the mind of this man. He has always struck me a both a misanthrope and fullof self loathing, hell by the end of Thief II he starts to think of himself and the builder as one and the same! In all the mecanists resemble fanatical fundamentalist protestants. Karras seems like Martin Luther + Nikola Tesla + Napoleon + a dash of Heinrich Himmler.

The Keepers: This lot are the very embodiment of ends justifying means. A fairly underused faction, although they manipulate everything in sight their intentions are in the right place. I agree that they've almost been taken as far as they can go but i'd like to see their origins and beliefs etc.

Pagans: The pagans don't come to my mind as hippies, they're terrifyingly uncompromising in their stance and goal to once again dominate over the material world. On the other hand, i'd like to see more of the Trickster - he seems to genuinely care for his followers.