Jarvis on 26/2/2009 at 23:51
I view the Wardens more as an equivalent to corporate leaders than mafia leaders. The Donal and Ruben (and others like them) are the mafia, and are in acting control of the organized criminal element. I'm get the sense that the Wardens are something different. They exist on a level in which everyone knows they pull the strings behind criminal organizations, but no one dares to bring about any real investigation because of the financial, legal, and illegal harm it may bring upon them and their family. In other words, it's way more profitable and beneficial to *everyone* to go along with the Warden control (except the victims of their crimes, of course, but who's keeping count?).
So I don't think the Wardens actually hold official political positions. It doesn't even sound like those are up for grabs in the first place. Whatever system of government the Baron has set up seems to be fully functioning on the ostensible level. The Wardens just have the money and influence to move and shake the right people to get things done the way they want. Which is of course why there are several Wardens, and why they don't seem to get along. No one agreed upon their terms. It would seem as though they stepped up to an opportunity as they saw fit.
Such men would have power and money in the Baron's presence, but in his absence they could act much more freely. Any politicians or officials wrapped up in Warden corruption wouldn't dare go to the Baron upon his return, as they're just as guilty as the Warden's themselves at this point.
...and I think LGS stayed away from City politics more in that it didn't have anything to do with the stories they were trying to tell, which is more or less the same thing you say Dig, but I feel like they put just enough information there to whet our appetites. Given enough time, sequels, and freedom I think a mission or two would have gone that way eventually. Alas, we will never know. *glances at the FM makers ;)
Overman on 28/2/2009 at 03:59
@ SneakyJ
re: Hammers
...but overall seem to be a somewhat non confrontational faction.
I disagree, the Hammers clearly seek confrontation throughout the series. They attack Garret and other faction members on sight most of the time, and are confrontational with citizens of the city via dialogues and acts. As a whole, their faction is divisive and fundamentalist. As with all extremists, they fail to see the gray areas; only absolutes.
re: Mechs
...and are far more shifty and untrustworthy than their Hammerite brethren.
Not sure, but my impression was that the Mechanists were doing more to promote the public good than the Hammers, via their emphasis on technology to solve social problems and generally enhance society. The 'train' in T2X is an example which stands out.
re: City Watch
They are the token 'bad guys'...in this case, authority figures who symbolize the anti-thesis of Garrett's role.
re: "The Thieves"
You must be referring to the 'Downwinders'?? IMO, they were pretty weak as a faction, as Garrett basically crippled their entire organization in a single mission.
I didn't ask for a detailed analysis on how the developers meant for the factions to play out
My post (that was linked) was NOT intended to analyze how the developers intended them to "play out", but rather the philosophical differences and dynamics involved. Included were my *personal views* on the subject - so its quite relevant to this...
Overman on 28/2/2009 at 04:00
@ Dante
Hammerites symbolize order, progress, and (vaguely) Christianity, all of which I believe in.
IMO, they resemble the fanaticism and emphasis on obedience that is more representative of Islam than Christianity.
Pagans represent chaos and are nuts...
IMO, they represent the randomness inherent in the natural world...chaos could be a euphemism.
'Nuts'? Not at all. They just appear that way to city-dwellers. Probably intended to articulate the same disdain a New Yorker would have for a hick from Appalachia. ;)
greypatch3 on 28/2/2009 at 05:07
I finished up a comedy novel that (fingers crossed) will be up on The Circle at some point (I have two other stories that involve the characters up there currently), but I do focus in on the Hammers and the Pagans especially. Now, nothing I say or do in the story can even be remotely considered canon (I tried to keep it within the realm of the world, but I do take my liberties), but even though I did make them funny, I did try to keep the villains involved very serious, and I based how they react on how I felt about the factions in game.
One of the things I cover is how, in a changing world, the Hammers and the Pagans both try to make PR grabs; the Hammers have built this massive complex where they try to establish a sort of 'feel good' attitude, but the man in charge of the place is an old-timer, who can't stand how his religion isn't the same thing he had joined. And yet, despite his pomposity, he is an absolute hypocrite, who does as he pleases with his status even though he himself is guilty of a lot of things the Hammers wouldn't appreciate. The only force that opposes him, ironically enough, is a Hammer who actually IS devoted to the cause of being righteous, forthwith, and so on. I always thought of the Hammers as the way a lot of people view a bureaucracy; the people at the bottom are the ones who truly believe in what the group is fighting for, but the people at the top have lost sight of that.
But don't think I'm attacking religion in a mean-spirited way; I'm Catholic, and I attend regularly. But I'm also writing a fictional story about a group that actively and wantonly shows off some of the worst traits of fanaticism. Even though, technically, the Hammers would be the 'good guys' of the Thief world, trying to rid the world of villainy and scum (you know, like Garrett;)), they don't run very clean prisons, as The Dark Project points out.
The Pagans, on the other hand, are trying to recruit younger members, and these younger members are having little group sessions where everybody gets to talk about feelings and whatnot. Again, the woman in charge of this group is an old-time Pagan who doesn't really like what's going on, but still does it anyway. But unlike the Hammer, she actually has supernatural gifts, and uses them to do some pretty horrid things in my story. Yes, the people in the world of Thief try to have as little contact with them as possible because they think them harmless crazies, but look at what they have at their disposal: monsters that lurk in the dark of night, ancient rituals of dubious moral intent, and a god who nearly destroyed the world. Underneath all the bad english, the Pagans are downright frightening. They're like the Joker in a way: they want to return the world to the maelstrom of tooth and claw, and bring that about by any means necessary. Granted, just up and killing people left and right won't help them make any converts, but they can be very subtle about how they do it. And like the Hammers, I make the point that the younger generation have different views about things than the older generation, but flipped: if the kids had any idea of what the elders were up to, they would probably have nothing to do with them.
As for the Keepers: well, I just think they did try, a long time ago, to really and honestly maintain the balance, to keep the City from imploding on itself. But unchecked power can run rampant, and instead of stopping each group from destroying the City, they started running it themselves. Sort of like what SJ said about them being shadow puppet masters, but I think it can be upped to more of a shadow government of sorts. They have become elitists through the fact that they simply feel, after all the years of knowledge they have collected, that they ARE the best qualified to run the affairs of the City.
Haven't played an FMs in awhile, been away from DromED for YEARS. But I think I might get back into them now. So much time and so little to do...wait, strike that, reverse it.
Lovecraftian on 28/2/2009 at 14:01
Quote Posted by Overman
re: Mechs
...and are far more shifty and untrustworthy than their Hammerite brethren.Not sure, but my impression was that the Mechanists were doing more to promote the public good than the Hammers, via their emphasis on technology to solve social problems and generally enhance society. The 'train' in T2X is an example which stands out.
Don't forget that Karras was only doing good to promote his own goals. And the Masked Servants and genocide towards pagans is beyond redemption.
Dan on 28/2/2009 at 18:48
Well done SneakyJack for the great idea for a thread! But just to make it clear on the cannon/fannon topic there is only one place that the canon comes from and that is the official games and in particular the in-game resources - those being conversations, books, cut scenes, briefings, maps, objectives and any voice files , both used and unused. When ever I write an article for the Thief Wikia I try to keep strict to the cannon, because it is important. And I get the cannon from those resources. Anything else is considered either speculations based on the cannon facts or complete fannon. I absolutely encourage fannon, that includes literature and FMs, because that is what makes the universe immortal. (Sorry for the bit of off-topic)
And now back to SJ's topic:
Hammerites: I don't know why most people start with them, but it seems that people like them a lot. It is my favorite faction as well and from the first moment I played Cragscleft I loved the Hammers. They are the definition of progress and the development of man's potential. As for my personal opinion I think the Hammers represent not simply order and religion, but dignity, skill and heroism as well.
Mechanists: In my opinion a more efficient, but fanatical and immoral version of the hammers. But it all comes from Karras as the rest just blindly believe him.
Pagans: As a matter of fact these are my second favorite as I like the spirit of nature and the mysticism that their culture brings. The idea of men and beasts living together is interesting, but those tree houses are my favorite.
The Keepers: Their sole goal seems to be staying away from publicity and preserving writings. However in history and in T1/TG they seem to represent high motivation and power towards the good side - saving Garret and the city from the zombie apocalypse. But in T3 Orland leads them to a passive state of wating for Garrett to do all the dirty work.
City Watch: In my opinion again like with all the rest the leader of the faction determins the role. Truart makes the watch efficient, but blind to the directions this leads them, and Truart is a puppet of publicity. However I do love all their uniform variations and the crime-fightng authority they represent.
Thieves and regular Guards: those do not have a dedicated creed or faction and I consider them either mercenaries or freelancers. Note that Downwinders guild belongs to Donal and Reuben and I can't recall any cannon mentioned connection between them and the city wardens.
Undead: They are not a recognized faction, but they all work together to beat the crap of anything living. I love undead missions and the idea that you don't just bash everything with your sword and have to find alternative weapons. The first time I played Cragscleft I was 13 so it took me sometime to get used to them, but after that they got awesome for me.
Melan on 28/2/2009 at 21:58
My thoughts; in keeping with the thread's purpose, the interpretations are personal, and not overly concerned about what is "canonical" and what is not.
The Hammerites: probably the most interesting group for me, since their order is built on typically human contradicitions which raises them above a caricature: conservatism and a belief in human progress, a religious hierarchy that seems to have modernised an entire world but fallen behind when its original purpose - ascent from the Trickster's shadow - was no longer seen so important and people saw progress/industry as a means to their own material well-being rather than an ends with an inherent virtue and nobility of its own. The Hammerites no longer seem to understand society, nor the society the Hammerites; this seems to be inevitable, but not necessarily for the best.
An interesting side problem: was the Builder a real divinity, or merely a venerated founder figure, a once human symbol of man triumphing over nature's mercilessness? I lean towards the latter. And it is interesting that in TDP, they actually turn out to be right - not just metaphorically, but in the real physical sense.
The Mechanists are what religion can become without self-reflection: either mindlessly obedient to a simplified message/charismatic leader or endlessly flexible in pursuing fundamentally non-religious goals (namely power and wealth). The Hammerites seemed to have done some rather bad stuff (e.g. running Cragscleft) in the belief that it would be good for the sinners; Mechanists, on the other hand, simply kill people because it is convenient to do or they are in the way. In the hands of a maniac like Karras, such a configuration quickly becomes extremely dangerous.
(In Unbidden Guest, I tried to present an alternate way in which the Mechanists order may have unfolded under a less insane leader - on the basis of enlightened progress with a shift from a spiritual message to a more secular and practical one.)
Pagans in Thief 1 are kind of a dead faction; an atavism that has returned to really undo everything humanity has built. If the Trickster had had his way, mankind would have returned to huddling around camp fires and being afraid of the dark and the man-eating creatures that prowl it - all in all, quite frightening from my perspective. In TMA, the pagans seem to actually exist as a human group, and are much more sympathetic, if a bit caricaturistic.
(In Bad Debts, there are a few places/people with connections to a sort of Pagan idea in the TDP vein but with a small human following - and they are not nice people at all. I like fan missions where Pagan environments are portrayed as places of weird and menacing otherness - natural, but unfriendly to humans. The Seven Sisters, for example, or Calendra's Cistern, have similar sections.)
Keepers hold an idea of balance that is actually rather creepy when you think about it - either an indifference to human suffering with the possibility of a smug self-righteousness, or a sort of manipulative outlook on society that is bound to develop in a very unpleasant and oppressive direction after some time. Hidden powers with agendas you don't even know about don't make for a reassuring rulership.
SneakyJack on 28/2/2009 at 23:43
Quote Posted by Brethren
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I think saying something like this is akin to saying "In my mind, Bugs Bunny shows up in The Bible at the Last Supper."
Its not an opinion thing, it's just simply not true. No fan, no matter how diehard, can ever provide anything official to the Thief universe. Opinions have nothing to do with it. Nothing against DrK at all, the faction he created is extremely interesting. But it's just one person's vision.
It is an opinion thing, which happens to be my own - I see that must irritate folks like yourself but I have no idea why. Using your imagination isn't such a big deal, I recommend it! ;) I never said that i'm using my non-existent brain washing power to declare The Order a brand new thief faction! or anything of the sort - all I said was that in my own little Thief world, The Order is now a Thief faction to me. Its sorta creepy how badly that bothers people, to be honest. I'm not trying to add to the true 'canon' that everyone is so worried about. Relax everyone! We can "what if" and it wont break Thief history, I promise. :laff:
Quote Posted by Lovecraftian
Fair enough. Hope i didn't irritate you. :D
Now for my views!
Not at all, and thank you for your contribution! You make alot of great points with your views on the Hammers - I agree with most of them and didn't even think of a few of those angles. I also would love to see a FM detailing the rise of the Mechanists - that would be very interesting indeed. Hopefully someday that mission comes along from the mind of someone that agrees with us!
Quote Posted by Jarvis
I view the Wardens more as an equivalent to corporate leaders than mafia leaders.
Very well said with your entire post - what you are saying makes alot of sense. I think you single handedly put the Warden's back on my map as a prominent faction with your views and fleshing out the story for them. You must have taken in a ton more on them than I did during my playthroughs.
Quote Posted by Overman
@ SneakyJ
I disagree
Thank you for explaining why you disagree - I can understand why you see it differently. Thats why I love threads based entirely on opinion - everyone takes in the story a little bit differently - or alot differently in our case :laff:
Quote Posted by greypatch3
the Hammers and the Pagans both try to make PR grabs
Very well written contribution - thank you for taking the time to type all that out. It was a great read and I think you are onto something with many of those points. I guess the Hammers and Pagans are similar to religions of today - never thought about it like that until reading your post. Well done - best of luck with your Novel!
Quote Posted by Dan
Well done SneakyJack for the great idea for a thread! But just to make it clear on the cannon/fannon topic
Thank you Dan! And I do know what cannon means - I've known from the beginning and I'm frankly amazed that one small comment in such a large wall of text was latched onto by so many people and nearly derailed the thread. I'm not trying to break thief lore here - just wanted to play "what do you see" for a bit. Make no mistake, I'm fully aware that Fan Mission content will never be Thief cannon.
That being said - I really enjoyed reading your views. I agree with you on your views of the Hammers 100 percent. I see that alot of people don't see them the way we do, but thats the beauty of everyone taking something different away from an experience!
Your views on the Pagans also intrigued me - I just felt that we never really got time to learn enough about them to make them feel worthwhile in the long run. I felt they played an important part here and there with an important character or two - but were ultimately not part of the "big plan" so to speak. A small part of a larger struggle. I'm glad to see a few folks have them as one of their favorite factions - I'd like to see fan missions do more with them.
Quote Posted by Melan
My thoughts; in keeping with the thread's purpose, the interpretations are personal, and not overly concerned about what is "canonical" and what is not.
Yes! Thank you! Exactly my intentions here.
Great thoughts on the hammers - moreso the second part where you bring into question what the builder actually is. I've always wondered that myself, and find myself agreeing with what you said. I would love to find out more about that in future missions - cannon or not.
Nice points about the Mechanists as well - Karras obviously isnt the most stable of leaders - it makes you wonder what type of person it would take in order to follow such an oddball in the first place.
Your views on the Keepers pretty much run alongside my own - smug self serving puppet master types that want to shape how the future unfolds to keep themselves in a position of importance.
Big thanks to everyone that has contributed so far - this has turned for the better and it is appreciated!
jtr7 on 28/2/2009 at 23:47
\o/
Renault on 1/3/2009 at 00:04
:joke:
