How do you (personally) view the factions in Thief?

SneakyJack on 1/3/2009 at 04:01

Quote Posted by jtr7

\o/

Quote Posted by Brethren

:joke:

I don't remember that anywhere in the original games and we've determined that nothing produced by fans will ever be entered into the carved stone of Thief canon and history.

:sly:

Herr_Garrett on 1/3/2009 at 08:46

Quote Posted by Brethren

Is akin to saying "In my mind, Bugs Bunny shows up in The Bible at the Last Supper."

It's not Bugs Bunny, it's Snowball, the descendant of Saint Peter who was a hare, too! Thou knowlessman! :angel:
Oh Builder, I just gave away the direst secrets of the Hare Club for Men... *commits suicide*

Dan on 1/3/2009 at 09:11

Quote Posted by jtr7

\o/

Yeah, what Jason said! :D

Quote Posted by Jarvis

The Donal and Ruben (and others like them) are the mafia, and are in acting control of the organized criminal element. I'm get the sense that the Wardens are something different.

Absolutely agree! Donal and Ruben are 100% branded criminals, leaders of a independent criminal group with a specific (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Thieves%27_Guild:_In-game_text#M15creed) Creed. They round up the lowlife thieves from the streets and give them shelter and fencing services, for a cut of the pie. They have no protection from the City Watch.

The wardens however have a legal side of the business and have strong political connections. As the document in Ramirez's basement says, Raputo for example interests in Bloodsports (somewhat legal), moneylending (legal) and spywatching (maybe not that legal). I really like how he is represented in the CoSaS FM "Mission X". I think the wardens don't bother with lowlife or freelancers too much, unless if it stands in their way (Garrett), and they control some parts of the Industry and Nobility (Bafford to Ramirez). However, the Baron represent BIG MAMA, and he has the sole ability to put them in a hole.

Quote Posted by Jarvis

...and I think LGS stayed away from City politics more in that it didn't have anything to do with the stories they were trying to tell, which is more or less the same thing you say Dig, but I feel like they put just enough information there to whet our appetites.

I think LGS had a specific idea here. In my opinion, they didn't hammer on the topic of politics, but it is an inseparable part of the story as Garrett lives in a world of the war of interests. The Baron and nobility represent the serious bureaucracy that haunts the everyday citizen. Wardens however had their own views of the city. In TDP and TG there were many recorded, but unused conversations on the topics of the wars between the City and Blackbrook, and Cyric and Bohn - how it affects economy and diplomacy. Garrett is a politician in a way, as his actions shape the future of the city (I took this from the game Assassins Creed:) )

@ SneakyJack
Man, your topic is a whole encyclopedia! I love speculations, fannon topics. I could really use all the opinions, at the Thief Wikia, to form serious factions articles. Once we sort out how do distinct cannon, from fannon, from plain speculation there, we can use all the material. But for now the cannon is endless and it takes time to write it all.

jtr7 on 1/3/2009 at 10:43

Wardens were called "crime lord" behind the scenes, "crime boss" and "Undermarket Warden" in-game, but never "Lord" in-game:
[INDENT](http://www.ttlg.com/thief/html/exclusive.htm) the spy- "...So who's that man in black in that screenshot?"
MAHK- "An assassin. One of the crime lord Ramirez' henchmen."[/INDENT]

[INDENT]From sg50901E: "Hell, half the force used to work for the Downwinders...Ramirez, an'...every other crime boss in The City."[/INDENT]

Whoever they are, of the Wardens named, only Ramirez is mentioned outside TDP/TG, in all the games, too. He's never given more than that single name, and he's the only known Warden to appear on the Master Guest List for the party at Angelwatch.

In TMA, there's talk of other Wardens, and there's a sense that there are more than Ramirez, Raputo, and Webster:
[INDENT]From M04B09: "They have ongoing investigations on the remaining Wardens and have made steady progress. They simply don't have enough of a case yet to move against them."[/INDENT]

We know the following isn't quite true, except maybe for the Thieves' Guild, and it's probably coincidence that the two amateur thieves appear sometime after Truart's assassination:
[INDENT]From M04B15: "Between Mosley and Warden Affairs, every thief in the city is out of business. I can't believe we used to try to stop crime by arresting the thieves. By attacking the bookkeepers and fences, crooks have nowhere to turn to."[/INDENT]

In TDS, there is no mention of any Warden other than Stout, of the City Watch, running Pavelock, and the Keeper, Glyph-warden Ruehan, and of course, Ramirez.

Before Truart, the Thieves' Guild were paying off key members of the City Watch, and as has been said, in TMA, many former Guild members are City Watchmen.

[INDENT]From the ledgers of Donal and Reuben:
1,500 Monthly payment to Sheriff
385 Bribe to Deputy Meffan
150 Bribe to Capt. Pearsall
1,300 Kickback for Constable Mahk
And of the judicial system, 300 Kickback to Magistrate Gilby.[/INDENT]

Thor on 1/3/2009 at 17:49

Keepers have always been my favourite race. The way they keep the balance...
Hammerites have always been funny lunatics. They are christians in Thief world. I never liked christians. I see hammerites making a nice parody out of them. Except Hammerites make it more fun and in that world all of myths are true.
Mechanists are a sad race with a sad fate.
City Watch are funny aswell... the drunkards they are...
Pagans are just a bunch of cast outs and survivors for me. Poor people...
Undead resemble the classic horror. I like those guys.
Mysterious creatures, ghosts and others are the true horror of Thief universe.

Don't have much more to say. Short opinions i have...

Melan on 2/3/2009 at 06:19

Quote Posted by Thor02

race

That's... an interesting take on the factions. :o

Renault on 2/3/2009 at 06:25

Seems like everyone forgot about The Hand Brotherhood. I always thought they were interesting enough for a few fan missions, but they aren't used much. They undoubtedly have a history to tell, as they knew about Constantine's return before Garrett did. Still, you have to wonder what happened to them, as they were never seen or heard from again after The Lost City.

Also, there's the Craymen, but there's not much to say about them, I suppose.

zifnab on 3/3/2009 at 21:03

Been a while since I last posted... 2006 to be exact.

I have to say that the Keepers are my favorite faction. At least as far as DP and MA are concerned, they seem to only care about keeping the balance within the city amongst the other factions. Mind you it's been a while since I played the games, but they always stuck me as sort of self-designated protectors of the city.

Their meddling with Garrett seemed to be because he 1) knew of them 2) had "mad skills" and 3) they knew enough to be able to at least push him in the direction they thought would bring about balance. It's almost like Star Wars, but let's not try and bring in too many parallels here.

Pagans struck me more as just people wanting to be left alone with their faith. Similar, say, to the early Christians.

Hammerites are like the Christian church back in the day. Having a strong hand in matter, but generally trying to do right. Course, this is a problem since the game's based off of stealing from folks.

Mechanists are like the conspirator's idea of the Christian Church, trying to exert total control over people and take over eventually creating their version of paradise.

Thor on 3/3/2009 at 21:05

Quote Posted by Melan

That's... an interesting take on the factions. :o

Eh, i bet you could find other mistakes in my posts aswell. I'm an idealist, yet i cannot even put sentences properly.

Dante on 3/3/2009 at 21:40

Quote Posted by Brethren

"In my mind, Bugs Bunny shows up in The Bible at the Last Supper."

:confused:
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:idea:

Quote Posted by Lovecraftian

A fairly underused faction

Yes, the fact that they are underused adds to their mystery. If they popped up nonstop, they'd lose their enigmatic charm.

Quote Posted by Overman

IMO, they resemble the fanaticism and emphasis on obedience that is more representative of Islam than Christianity.

Interesting you mention this. It never occurred to me, probably because architecturally they are very Western. I like this idea.

Quote:

IMO, they represent the randomness inherent in the natural world...chaos could be a euphemism.

'Nuts'? Not at all. They just appear that way to city-dwellers. Probably intended to articulate the same disdain a New Yorker would have for a hick from Appalachia. ;)

When I wrote that, I had T3's exaggeration of their mannerisms stamped on my mind. Still, I get a little kick out of them.

Quote Posted by Thor02

Hammerites have always been funny lunatics

How are they lunatics? Because they speak in faux Middle English?

Quote:

I never liked christians.

For the record, I don't like you either.

Quote:

Except Hammerites make it more fun and in that world all of myths are true.

Wait, what? I don't follow this. The presence of magic in the universe of the City doesn't verify that all myths are real. Or am I forgetting pieces of Thief lore?