Jah on 4/3/2009 at 12:59
Quote Posted by SneakyJack
Thief cannon
I'm getting a mental image of some weird metal contraption designed by the Mechanists to aid the City Watch in crimefighting. :p Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Anyway, regarding the actual topic:
Unless my memory totally fails me, the City Watch didn't exist in T1 (at least in the sense that you don't see any bluecoats in the T1 missions); instead, the Cragscleft prison is run by the Hammers. The way I remember it, most of the Cragscleft inmates were charged with various secular offenses like theft, dealing in stolen goods, prostitution etc., which gave me the impression that the Hammers were responsible for secular as well as religious law enforcement, and that in this regard, they also served as an arm of the secular government. I wonder whether the inclusion of the City Watch in T2 was merely a change in design plans (i.e. LGS decided that they wanted to include a separate secular police force), or whether the formation of the Watch was a result of the waning power of the Hammers in the wake of the Mechanist Order, meaning that there really was no City Watch when the events of T1 took place.
It's been a while since I've played the T1 OM's, so it's quite possible that there were references to the Watch that I've simply forgotten, even if you never actually see any watchmen.
Comments?
jtr7 on 4/3/2009 at 18:25
The City Watch were never seen, nor was there any mention of a prison outside Cragscleft. However, upon entering the barricaded section of Old Quarter, we read M7WALL:
[INDENT]"Iendros:
The City Council is deeply grateful for the efforts of your men in the emergency construction of this great Wall, which now begins to shield us from the dangers behind it.
We know of the hours of backbreaking labor you have already given us, but regret that we cannot yet allow you any rest, as the work is of greatest urgency. You have our deepest sympathies at the loss of your workers Barton and Adan to the zombies, but you must know that your men number among the legion lost to this evil.
As we regain our city, with the undead put down and the wounded given succor, we have freed a watch of the Guard to accompany your men as they finish, so do not let fear stop your efforts!
The City counts on you - do not fail us in our hour of need.
-Lord Whitsimmon"[/INDENT]
And overheard this conversation, elsewhere int he game:
[INDENT]Sg3c1701: Hey, you remember when the Baron's police took down DeWall?
Sg2c1702: Yeah! Of course.... Had a buddy in the group was blockin' the back alley.
Sg3c1703: I hear it was Raputo turned him over.
Sg2c1704: Another under-market Warden? That's slick![/INDENT]
And we learned of a Constable Tule in M7KEY.
Thief Gold mentioned a Sheriff, a Constable Mahk, a Captain Pearsall, and a Deputy Meffan.
Until Karras and Truart's "new age", with gossip that the Baron didn't know what Truart was up to, the Wardens seemed to run things, with the usual vigilantism of the Hammers that the authorities never seemed to take action against.
Renault on 4/3/2009 at 18:51
Quote Posted by Jah
Unless my memory totally fails me, the City Watch didn't exist in T1
Interesting, if you go mission by mission for Thief Gold, there isn't a single city scenario where there are guards walking around that could be considered policemen, they all belong to someone (Bafford, Ramirez, Constantine, etc.).
I think there has always been a police force of some kind, but I was always under the impression that the more organized version known as The City Watch was created by Truart when he took over. There's this bit from Digi about the Thief 2 Gold missions (which you can assume can from one of the former LGS Devs):
Quote:
T2G-Slums.zip - Maybe the farthest along of the T2G missions, this slums-based mission was to feature Garrett trying to go about his business while dealing with the city watch battling it out with thugs. It was to be the first of the T2G missions, possibly set after Shipping & Receiving, and act as
a new introduction to The City Watch. (screen)
Thor on 4/3/2009 at 19:12
Wow, i knew i'd get somebody mad about my hammerite comment.
I called them lunatics, cause they are a bit down that road. Not entirely, so that's why i added the funny part.
Well, since trickster was real and i didn't really thaught about much other myths, cause Trickster was the most gradious and there are lots of other strange stuff out there, so the myths might just be true.
As i said, i never really liked christians (more like the high priests earlier, fanatics ect...), but no need to take it so personally.
On the other hand, i've probably given you enough reasons to dislike me.
SneakyJack on 4/3/2009 at 21:07
No personal attacks please. :(
Beleg Cúthalion on 4/3/2009 at 21:19
The Hammerites are about as representative for the medieval church as the Persians in "300" were for the real Persians.
"I don't like Christians" is a too blurry statement anyway, so what the hell...
Thor on 5/3/2009 at 13:01
I guess you think not liking means disliking... Dude, i'm never going to like such a "religion". Doesn't mean i dislike it. (I'm neutral)
I wasn't trying to insult ANYONE here, so please, calm down buddy.
Edit: Hmm, then again, it seems i thaught not liking is disliking aswell. Anyway please let's stop it here. I'm okay with you disliking me. It's fair enough. I'm just not really good at talking about stuff like this.
Meisterdieb on 5/3/2009 at 16:56
From the moment I started playing the Thief series, the one faction that fascinated me the most were the
Hammerites. Reading and hearing about their history and then seeing them in the missions just pulled me into the game. I always wondered how they came to their position of prominence in the city and how the conflict with the city watch went (IIRC there is a mention in TG about the Hammers arresting someone and the watch not being happy about it (or someone complaining TO the watch about it)).
In my mind I saw Hammer patrols and city watchmen almost coming to blows over who may arrest people and what constitutes a "real" crime. They off course wouldn't fight each other -other than some fisticufss maybe- since they were on the same side, after all (may have changed after Truart hired all the scum to work on the watch).
The
Keepers were great and mysterious during the first and teh second game. But TDS seriously destroyed all the aura of awesomeness the Keepers had had before being reduced to bumbling scribes or mass-murdering tattoo freaks. Though I liked the Keepers levels in TDS...
It would have been interesting to find out why and how the Keepers were founded, and maybe if they are confined to the city or if they keep the balance of the whole world (with what Garrett did for them in the games he kinda saved the whole world anyway).
What I missed in the series and which I hope will be more seen of in FMs are some of the scarcely mentioned factions and their interactions.
It would be nice to see more of the Wardens and their work, although I think there needed to be a very good reason for Garrett to meddle with them. If you recall the only reason G went after Ramirez was because R tried to kill him. I'm not sure about the Downwinder incident baecause I thought they were just a smallish Thieves' Guild and not in the same league as the Wardens (but that's just my view).
Gosh, I would have loved to see the T2G mission (slum?) and trying to elude both Watch and thieves while they fight each other.
It would have been nice to see more of the Hand Brotherhood (maybe running across another of their expeditions), as well as the Claymen and the Kurshok beimg more then just sword fodder. I'd like to see them in missions where we see a reason for them to be there other than just because.
In my view (my chosen opinion - I know about the official version, I just don't think it's any good), Claymen and Kurshok are one and the same faction. Simply because they both use those clicking sounds and cause I thought it stupid to have yet another race of beings there that weren't necessary - the claymen could have taken over that role without any problem.
Oh, and we mustn't forget the nobles. I liked how you got to infiltrate many manors or mansion and get an "honest" look at what those people were really up.
Altogether I'd say the reason why Thief was so immersing for me is that all the factions fit together and complement each other so well. You have allies, enemies and some factions never really come in contact with another. There are all sorts of interactions going on behind the scenes and the factions feel really alive.
Quote Posted by Lovecraftian
Don't forget that Karras was only doing good to promote his own goals. And the Masked Servants and genocide towards pagans is beyond redemption.
True but I don't think the rest of the Mechanists knew about THAT. I#d venture that even Cavador didn't know that part. All those hammers only joined the Mechanists because they seemed more about progress and improving technology (and maybe the city as a whole, if they're actually compassionate). Yes, they had no qualms about killing/converting pagans, criminals, urchins and street low life, but they were basically just doing what every other faction was doing as well - the Baron was leading his men to the slaughter, the Wardens will steal from, kill and torture anyone crossing them, and Hammers or city watchmen weren't gentle to their prisoners either.
(I'm not trying to excuse such behaviour, just trying to put it in context)
Quote Posted by Overman
Not sure, but my impression was that the Mechanists were doing more to promote the public good than the Hammers, via their emphasis on technology to solve social problems and generally enhance society. The 'train' in T2X is an example which stands out.
While I tend to agree with your view of Mechanists, sadly this Train isn't part of the official thief world as well.
Quote Posted by Brethren
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I think saying something like this:
Quote:
The Order Of The Souls [...] in my mind are now officially part of Thief canon
Is akin to saying "In my mind, Bugs Bunny shows up in The Bible at the Last Supper."
Its not an opinion thing, it's just simply not true. No fan, no matter how diehard, can ever provide anything official to the Thief universe. Opinions have nothing to do with it.
Sorry to barge in here, but I just want to say that some people seemingly want to misunderstand on purpose.
Like many others here, I didn't have any problem understanding what SneakyJack was saying, and that -despite his opinion- the Order of the Soul still is only fandom and not canon. So while you are correct in you're assertement of canonism, it kinda was besides the point...
Quote Posted by Dante
Hammerites symbolize order, progress, and (vaguely) Christianity...
No on the Christianity part. There may be some parallels and similarities between the Hammers and some Order Militant but the Hammers certainly don't symbolize Christianity (even IF some developer would say so - the Hammers just don't share the premises).
I'm not sure how much symbolim there really is, but if they must symbolize anything it would be more along the lines ORDER vs chaos, changing the world to a less wild state etc.
Quote Posted by Dante
Unfortunately, they're pompous snobs and they couldn't speak modern English if their lives depended on it.
Pagans [...] They're funny though. And they also fail at English.
The pagans and their speech bothered me a lot more than the Hammers.
Not sure, what you would have liked the Hammers to sound like, but apart from their faux middle english they speak quite ably.
The pagans -especially in TDS- were a catastrophy. With their dumb-speak the developers managed to IMO destroy this otherwise fantastic faction.
Dante on 7/3/2009 at 20:13
Quote Posted by Thor02
I guess you think not liking means disliking... Dude, i'm never going to like such a "religion". Doesn't mean i dislike it. (I'm neutral)
I wasn't trying to insult ANYONE here, so please, calm down buddy.
The difference between "Christianity" and "Christians" is pretty clear, at least to me. Christianity is the religion. Christians are the people. You said you didn't like Christians, so I took it to mean you didn't like the people. Anywhoz.
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
No on the Christianity part. There may be some parallels and similarities between the Hammers and some Order Militant but the Hammers certainly don't symbolize Christianity (even IF some developer would say so - the Hammers just don't share the premises).
I'm not sure how much symbolim there really is, but if they must symbolize anything it would be more along the lines ORDER vs chaos, changing the world to a less wild state etc.
Hammerites are monotheistic, fairly active politically, and their architecture is very Western (stained glass windows, for example). That's good enough for me. No, I don't think the intricacies of their beliefs are at all Christian.
Quote:
The pagans and their speech bothered me a lot more than the Hammers.
Not sure, what you would have liked the Hammers to sound like, but apart from their faux middle english they speak quite ably.
The pagans -especially in TDS- were a catastrophy. With their dumb-speak the developers managed to IMO destroy this otherwise fantastic faction.
Hammerites sound fine to me; I was messing around when I commented on these factions' speech. And yes, I think everyone here agrees that TDS Pagans are a joke.
Sometimes I wonder if the Hammerites' "thees" and "thous" are meant to be a parody of poorly researched and poorly executed archaic dialogue in those awful pulp fantasy novels (e.g.
Eragon).
