Selete on 23/7/2008 at 22:30
Surely not every Keeper is taken from the streets after trying to pick another keeper's pocket. It's clear that SOME are, (or one is, at least,) but recall that Keeper Artemus is not the priggish type, fussing over rules or tradition.
It would make sense if the Keepers were inducted through merit, as this is a 'balanced' way (showing too much affection to one's kin is needless charity,) but the Keepers are not always balanced, and how would a Keeper hide his or her Keeperdom from his family? Do Keepers have family at all? It's hard to imagine...
In Deadly Shadows, Orland does refer to the Keepers having 'ancestors,' but this might only be a metaphorical term, referring to those who laid down their traditions rather than those who donated their genetic material to the newer generations.
Any thoughts?
Selete on 23/7/2008 at 23:14
HEATHEN WRETCH! Dost thou doubt that I am one of the Builder's chosen flock?!? I SHALT SMITE THEE! *Strains to lift her hammer up...* as soon as I gain the muscles required to lift mine instrument...
Which reminds me... one is either inducted into the Hammerite order or follows one's parents into it; one is born a beast-person or into the Pagans, or might, just might, follow their ways and become a pagan simply by becoming a pagan (presumably it's more of a lifestyle than an organization;) but we don't know enough about the Keepers to tell either of those things.
We see that Artemus walks the streets and wears a Keeper ring. That suggests that they do spend at least some time living as ordinary citizens. However, whether they started that way is still unclear. The Keeper Library has a dormitory.
Elentari on 23/7/2008 at 23:17
These are only my guesses/assumptions and general thoughts on the matter.
I am betting that the Keepers pretty much take talent where the find it. It may be in family members it may not be. In Garrett's case, it was a random urchin off the street. In some cases they may 'observe' certain people who have unusual talents. They may also have some way of sensing when someone is very young (infant?) whether or not they have any sort of talent that can be utilized.
As for hiding their "Keeper" status from family. . .well if one does have family (and it makes sense that at least -some- do) that it could be passed off as them attending something like a boarding/private school, they could pass it off as a 'new job', etc. It probably also depends on the age of the new acolyte. And there's nothing to suggest they only accept children. But keep in mind the general populous does not (or did not) know the Keeper organization even existed, so it could just be passed off as a new job, a 'priest's vocation', a school, etc. Anything to conceal the actual truth.
And its quite probable that acolytes don't return home -that- often during their training. At least not until the older Keepers know they'll hold their tongues.
Its also well possible the Keepers have/sponsor/teach in schools where they can watch children for those who show some sort of talent.
Selete on 24/7/2008 at 00:22
That makes sense, but brings up security issues. If they're taking talent where they can find it, they're giving offers. Educated offers, yes, but still offers - meaning the potential talent could say no. Now in some cases, it'll be a quick, "Get away from me, old man!" with no security breach, but others will be sat down, have the society explained to them, and still say, "No thanks, I don't want to work with you."
At which point, they know too much.
Now, they could simply 'eliminate' those people. But that's an awful lot of murders. Keeper eliminators seem to have no problem killing everyone in sight (although I think that's just stupidity on the third game's part,) but even in as terrible as place as the City, it's probably quite difficult to commit murder and get away completely clean, let alone doing so on any sort of frequent basis.
I suppose if they have (had) memory altering glyphs, it might work.
Elentari on 24/7/2008 at 00:28
:laff: Wiping people's memory after an offer? Its possible.
Its possible too that their offers are fairly generic. Like the offer to Garrett. . .it said -nothing- about being part of a 'secret society'. I think 'a Keeper' was mentioned. . .but if he'd said no and they parted ways, he could ask about the Keepers and no one would know anything so it'd end up forgotten and shrugged off, mostly. It was more a promise of 'we'll show you a better way', and a suggestion of 'a better life'. No mention of any sort of society or order.
So if they keep their general 'invitations' so vague, there would be nothing to make people forget. If they get children young too. . .then they wouldn't be 'offered', they'd probably just take them in and that was that. Garrett, I think was a bit older. Old enough to be offered a choice.
What I do wonder, though. . .is when they get people and those people want out. I know Garrett was allowed to go with no 'dire' consequences. But they also made a note of it. Sort of suggesting, to me at least, that people don't leave that often. Or aren't allowed to leave. . .?
Selete on 24/7/2008 at 01:08
It certainly does seem to suggest that. Perhaps people are afraid to leave, or there are benefits to being a keeper? They certainly seem to have a lot of wealth.
If Garrett, one of the most promising acolytes among their ranks, was allowed to leave, why not let the weak ones through? Perhaps they knew that he wouldn't talk?
Beleg Cúthalion on 24/7/2008 at 06:39
Garrett was prevented from being
sickled only by Caduca's intervention [SM3aboutgarrett.sch] in the council. I guess after all that's what awaits you if you have seen too much. Maybe, to avoid such things in the first place, they have a non-keeperish section to take care of their new aspirants (at least the little ones) to check whether they are suitable or not; probably some kind of charity-educational-like thing. Especially with children it might be quite effective after all, if one considers the methods of the Ottoman (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C5%9Firme) Devshirme. After five years of Keeper training you maybe don't even
want to go out there again. Speaking of it, I also doubt that they went back to their families – not only for the sake of making them even more secretive, but for the already mentioned safety precautions.
I believe they would hardly have accepted anything else aside from promising children and adults who have proven to be politically interested but unsatisfied with the realities, ergo people who would really benefit from being there. Oh, and of course they had celibacy. You know, balance and that stuff. :p
Elentari on 24/7/2008 at 20:30
I'm not so sure I'd go so far as the celibacy thing, although you never know. However yeah, it does sort of make sense that they might have various 'levels' of initiating someone too. Means of 'locating' gifted individuals, then means of 'weeding' out the unsuitable ones before they are actually taken in as accolytes.
But, as you say, if Garrett was prevented from being killed by Caduca, then it sort of stands to reason that rogues, once you are in, are not tolerated. I suppose, it makes sense that the 'Enforcers' aren't there just for show. Possibly means of controlling their own rogue members as well as a tool to maintain the whole 'balance' thing.
Of course, no 'selective processing' was indicated when it came to Garrett. But we do know he was a 'special case' as well. Him being so promising and all. And, I suppose, for all we know, Artemis knew more about him than he let on. Maybe the glyph prophecies alerted him. Maybe he'd been watching the boy for awhile and was there hoping for some results. Then again, maybe it was just a random encounter and recognized potential too. No real way of knowing there. :)
But yeah, I do see a 'process' potential Keepers are put through. As they were a fairly well-established organization, I do see them having some fairly complex 'systems' in place. One so their people can come and go and 'watch' the city. In some cases it only makes sense that that watching would mean being an unobtrusive part of it. That would mean some of them lead semi-normal 'real lives'. There'd also be some sort of system to get them the food and supplies they'd need to keep such a thing going.
I don't know. Perhaps they have a glyph of silence to put on people? Allowing them to be out and about and do various things but unable to speak of the Keepers? I've heard of such spells in various fiction.
Gambit on 24/7/2008 at 23:16
As far as I know the Keepers have an active role of adopting children for further training.
-Garrett himself (after getting Artemus attention)
The little girl who translates Caduca´s interpetations. Although she´s not really a little girl but never mind...
The little girl at the end of TDS
So obviously they have a tendency to adopt street urchins and orphans. Maybe because they see them as detached from any ties, kids who have learned since their first years to survive on their own...
Maybe ALL Keepers were once children in the streets or orphans.
But that´s a bit extreme.
