Galaer on 20/12/2022 at 15:52
Quote Posted by klatremus
I'm not sure if you are intending for it, perhaps it's the language barrier, but you are coming across as extremely disrespectful here. Trash? Compared to what?? Not having a training mission at all? Or perhaps the training mission that you have made? Oh wait, you didn't make one did you. The whole mod, including the training mission, are made in the creator's free time, without any pay or compensation. It is made to help players get into the mod. Sure, it might not be for everybody, but that is more personal opinion than reflecting on the quality of the mod.
I just really had bad time with this tutorial mission. I got stuck in many places, I raged couple of times. For example I got stuck in starting room trying to find out how to read book. I tried frobbing it and it didn't work. So I was forced to restart mission and read pop-up hint to understand that I need to frob it, which means that somehow I unbind button for it. I would notice it much faster if if this hint wouldn't vanish after 5 seconds from starting this mission. At the end of this tutorial I wondered if author really didn't care or he was purposefully trolling me.
Quote Posted by klatremus
This is explained, it's just you didn't read the book that explained it. In my video (
https://youtu.be/-v1sz6VQydE?t=6695) here at 1:51:35 I read the exact passage which
very clearly explains how to carry bodies.
First of all, new player will not know that there are 2 use buttons: "frob/interact" and "use inv. item". And second - book is talking about "use" even though it's called "use inv. item" in controls menu. Lastly third - body isn't any item, so using this button doesn't feel logical.
Quote Posted by klatremus
Are you comparing two full fledged missions to a training mod? You cannot be serious.
I'm saying that playing normal mission and figuring mechanics on my own would be much faster than playing training mission. It felt that bad. Like for 30 min I tried to find "Manipulation" key in controls by looking at first letter (M) and I couldn't, because it's called "Parry/Manipulation". Or another example - just before manipulation room is room with 2 rings on crate. i got one ring, but I can't pick up second, because I always highlight crate. So I tried to lift crate, but this ring must weight at least 1 ton, because it's really hard. After 15 min of trying I managed drop ring from crate and pick it up. And I also raged during this process. Another example: noisemaker arrow challenge doesn't work if you have low sensitivity of enemies. And new player will not know what's the issue. There should be warning, but there isn't. That's why I say this was only tested by experts.
I mentioned having huge problem with opening chest with key. Hint vanished when I started reading it, but I thought "How hard can it be?". Unlike in Thief chest has 2 parts: lower (with lock) and upper (with lid). So I thought that I need to use key on lock and frob lid to open chest. But it doesn't work like that. Took me 15 min to open this chest, but I had no idea how did I do it, so it took me another 15 min to lock it and yet another 15 min to finally figure out that I need to use key on lid and frob lid to open chest. And doing the same sequence just with lock doesn't work. Also after opening chest I get congratulation pop-up, which reappear while pop-up about opening chest doesn't. After beating this mission I checked your video to find out what exactly this pop-up says and it's useless. It just says to use key to open chest. That's all.
Good tutorial should assume that person playing it doesn't know anything about this game and explain mechanics very literally. Also it should avoid frustrating situations. This one explains some mechanics really well (like archery or exploration zone with swimming), but unfortunately there are many places where these rules are broken. So hopefully, klatremus, after these couple of examples (because that not the only things I got stuck) you will understand why I fell this mission was one of the worst tutorials I have ever played. That was really rough experience and I'm glad you managed to avoid it.
Dahenjo on 21/12/2022 at 01:01
I tried many times but until version 2.10 couldn't hack the long TDM load/reload times. I reload a lot to try different approaches so that always ruined things for me. But now I enjoy it as much as Thief, have played most of the FMs, several multiple times, and consider TDM an integral part of my Thief-ly existence. Remakes aside it looks like TDM will top the FM graph for the second time in 2022, and many thanks to JarlFrank for his work maintaining that.
The movement isn't as good/fluid but I've gotten used to it, and even regular Thief will feel awkward for a bit after playing TDM a lot. I mostly crouch-run which feels smoother & still gets around pretty quickly, and I also use creeping (both standing & crouching) a lot to stay quiet or get in close for KOs. At first I was awful at KOs but can now take out all but the most heavily armored guards, you've just gotta get in close then strike fast around the nape of the neck & down they go.
The realism of the game world is more advanced, and I play at 4K on a powerful pc with a 28" Samsung G70A monitor at 144 Hz that just looks superb & is super immersive. I agree with fortuni about Iris being one of the best Thief genre FMs of all time (if not the GOAT), have played it maybe ten times now & still enjoy every minute. Several others mentioned are also excellent, and like Thief FMs they vary in quality, play style, etc but usually feel well worth playing in the end. Personally, I found the Thief's Den series a nice & varied introduction when getting into TDM, which I believe have been updated from the original four FMs, and were definitely more fun & interesting than the training mission.
Couple other points are I set doors not to open when unlocking, takes a couple extra clicks but is safer for stealth purposes. Also I like that you can open doors while carrying bodies, where in Thief you have to drop them, and the time saved can save my ass from getting caught.
ciscokidd73 on 22/12/2022 at 20:40
Not enough were released. I thirst for more! :D
Vortex85 on 22/12/2022 at 21:18
Quote Posted by ciscokidd73
Not enough were released. I thirst for more! :D
You want more this year?
:angel:
JarlFrank on 23/12/2022 at 11:03
+1 it is!
ciscokidd73 on 23/12/2022 at 13:11
thank you
Samantha1 on 9/1/2023 at 19:45
Quote Posted by zajazd
I gave TDM
another chance today, it could be 5th or so over many years... I just can't enjoy it - it still feels janky, blackjacking feels off, lockpicking is annoying, you can't carry blackjacked NPCs on your back but instead have to pull them by their arms or legs - good luck doing that in tight spaces. Thanks but no thanks, this was the last time for me.
Sadly I have the same problem, though I only tried it out a few days ago for the first time after seeing the yearly FM stats. The setting and graphics of TDM look so nice, but the gameplay and how it feels is just weird for me. The lockpicking as you said aswell I find super annoying. In Thief the lockpicking is the side thing you do, the faster it goes the better, but in TDM you have to concentrate on it so much. I also had problems to find out how certain things work even though I played the training mission and tried to read all the notes. For example pulling a body, it´s annoying, the body slips away so easily and I had to try it several times. Also how loud the main character is. Even if I walk very slowly and crouch, he still will make sounds on metal plates. But the use of moss arrows is hard aswell, nothing compared to thief. Probably the worst for me were the NPC. I tried a fanmission and the NPC would say "step aside" and then I step aside but he attacks me. I was like "wut?" Or a random beggar "do you have coins for the poor?", then he suddenly runs to the guards screaming for help.. again I´m like "what?!"... . It just feels not fluent and good like thief does. I´m really sad about it, I really really wanted to like it since I know how much work it must have cost the people to create sth. monumental as TDM :(
klatremus on 10/1/2023 at 06:06
- Set lockpicking to novice/beginner in the settings and its super easy.
- You dont have to drag people. Press use once you drag it and you carry the body just like in Thief.
- Surfaces are louder yes, but that is probably more realistic. Thief is probably the game that is skewed unrealistically in the stealth favor more than it should be.
- I've played TDM for many years now and never had the NPC situations you're referring to. And please, Thief is anything but stellar in the NPC department. Probably it's biggest flaw if you ask me.
I think the biggest problem is players except TDM to be "just like Thief". Well, it isn't. It's a different engine. It's actually a different game. It's supposed to capture the atmosphere from Thief, but still be its own thing. And in that regard I think it hits the nail on the head.
Samantha1 on 10/1/2023 at 17:09
I see, thanks for the info. But why isn't this explained in the training tutorial? Or is it and i just missed it? Though i tried to read everything. Maybe it was just too much at once. I also had problems with readables, like opening them. Its also never said that you can just change the difficulty. It's not that it has to be like thief or i expect it to be, its just that it feels so strange to play, like not fluent at all. Hard to describe. I think the mission in which this happened was Iris. I would go to a beggar for example. He says "coins for the poor please?", I pass him without doing anything and he suddenly looks for me saying sth. Like "stop hiding" and when he finds me he runs away calling for help. Other npcs did that too.
I also dont find it realistic that it makes so much sound on metal. In real life if you slowly crouch over metal it doesnt make a sound either. Thief is more realistic in that regard.
