Hypothesis: the more educated you are the less likely you are to be religious - by SubJeff
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 12:57
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
Today we have better medicine, technology, law enforcement etc. That is what enables us to live better lives than our ancestors, as I mentioned before 'religion losing it's hold on the people' is more due to our affluence gorging us where we are chasing consumer goodies, wasting our time on entertainment etc rather than pondering more important things.
What? Pondering more important things in science and philosophy are happening at breakneck speed in these times. We have people taking positive steps in understanding the fabric of the universe (large hadron collider) and you seriously think that this is somehow a step back from people believing in invisible entities who are offended by who they have sex with and how they have it? Do you believe that in pre-enlightenment times, everyone sat around and pondered the great questions of existence, or do you think that the big thinkers did that, while ordinary people concerned themselves more with leisure pursuits (which have existed in various forms throughout our existence), success with the opposite sex and the goings on of well known people (instead of celebrities, you have the nobility etc.. or going far back enough, anyone of high social status in your tribe). So blinkered!
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 13:02
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
On another note:
Actually all of human history is humans going on 'violent, looting, raping and killing free-for-all' blood and madness sprees whether inspired by religious or secular ideas (or simply for the fun of it in some cases). Now we just go about it with better weapons.
No, this is reporter bias. Much like you never switch on the news and hear about ordinary people being nice to each other and going about their lives, you hear only about war, crime, financial crises - events of great note. This has the effect of distorting out perception of the proportions in which events occur, which does not match up to actual statistics. Most of human behaviour is much like your average society, just with different levels of technology and complexity as you move through time. If you stop watching the news and actually just go out and interact with people, you realise that despite their foibles, most people are pretty decent.
Vasquez on 7/2/2012 at 13:12
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
Today we have better medicine, technology, law enforcement etc.
Still, even with all that, individuals have much better basic human rights in countries/areas where religion is not given power over general societal matters.
And how about those religious police forces in certain Muslim countries? Wow, that's law enforcement at it's finest! Must be a joyous place to live with all that security.
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
as I mentioned before 'religion losing it's hold on the people' is more due to our affluence gorging us where we are chasing consumer goodies, wasting our time on entertainment etc rather than pondering more important things.
Funny, I know plenty of people who are not members of any religion, yet they somehow not only have managed to avoid crazy consumerist lifestyle, but are also able to ponder important, profound things with depth and intellect.
Depends on what you see as more important, of course; if it's "will I go to Heaven when I die" or "man those gay people are such disgusting sinners", I guess many religious people are ponderers.
jay pettitt on 7/2/2012 at 13:13
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'religion losing it's hold on the people' is more due to our affluence gorging us where we are chasing consumer goodies, wasting our time on entertainment etc rather than pondering more important things.
And what do you think we're doing in this thread? :mad::mad::mad:
also
Quote Posted by faetal
What?
this.
Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 13:30
Quote Posted by faetal
What? Pondering more important things in science and philosophy are happening at breakneck speed in these times. We have people taking positive steps in understanding the fabric of the universe (large hadron collider) and you seriously think that this is somehow a step back from people believing in invisible entities who are offended by who they have sex with and how they have it? Do you believe that in pre-enlightenment times, everyone sat around and pondered the great questions of existence, or do you think that the big thinkers did that, while ordinary people concerned themselves more with leisure pursuits (which have existed in various forms throughout our existence), success with the opposite sex and the goings on of well known people (instead of celebrities, you have the nobility etc.. or going far back enough, anyone of high social status in your tribe). So blinkered!
A small number of people are pondering scientific matters-the masses are entertaining themselves with electronic games and gizmos that our ancestors would have never dreamed of (I wonder how our brain is affected by this technology-that would be an interesting subject to study). I think we have a few more options regarding wasting our time than our ancestors had. As for the hadron collider and the possible scientific discoveries coming from it's use-I'm sure inquiring minds will figure out cool ways to use the new knowledge to make even better weapons than we had before.
Hopes for a lightsaber;)
Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 13:40
Quote Posted by faetal
No, this is reporter bias. Much like you never switch on the news and hear about ordinary people being nice to each other and going about their lives, you hear only about war, crime, financial crises - events of great note. This has the effect of distorting out perception of the proportions in which events occur, which does not match up to actual statistics. Most of human behaviour is much like your average society, just with different levels of technology and complexity as you move through time. If you stop watching the news and actually just go out and interact with people, you realise that despite their foibles, most people are pretty decent.
No, I've read my share of history-conflict is the norm for our species maybe not wars every day of the week, but there's always trouble brewing-
Job 5:7 man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.Btw-I do 'actually go out and interact with people' and not just sit at home looking at news-while there are some decent people out there, there just as many who are self centered, egotistical, cruel, arrogant-and some of them would just as soon cut your throat if you got in their way. As for 'decent people'-change the circumstances of things in their area, inject a little hunger, poverty, absence of the rule of law, disaster, etc- and I think you would be startled at the changes 'nice' people can undergo. Human depravity exists and it is an ugly thing.:p
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 13:43
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
A small number of people are pondering scientific matters-the masses are entertaining themselves with electronic games and gizmos that our ancestors would have never dreamed of (I wonder how our brain is affected by this technology-that would be an interesting subject to study).
Do I need to point out the fact that we are on a gaming forum discussing the fabric of the universe and basis for human behaviour?
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I think we have a few more options regarding wasting our time than our ancestors had.
We still have 24 hour days mind, and the same basic thinking apparatus. There is no way you are suggesting that before video games, cinema etc... people just sat around and pondered the fabric of reality. Anthroplogists actually think that ancestral humans in hunter gatherer communities would have spent more time in social and leisure activities than modern humans due to their society only requiring arounf 4 hours work per person per day on average.
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As for the hardon collider and the possible scientific discoveries coming from it's use-I'm sure inquiring minds will figure out cool ways to use the new knowledge to make even better weapons than we had before.
Hopes for a lightsaber;)
Weak argument. Just because something can be made into weapons, doesn't mean it is inherently bad. Religion was used as an excuse to kill people during the crusades, but that was just individuals using religion as their TOOL, not because the religion itself was inherently violent (though a brief thumb through the bible does suggest a lot of torture, rape and killing in the name of the lord).
Vasquez on 7/2/2012 at 13:48
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
I think we have a few more options regarding wasting our time than our ancestors had.
So religion was made up so the masses would have something to waste their time on, when nothing better was around? Hmm, that actually makes sense.
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
hardon collider
lol
Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 13:51
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Still, even with all that, individuals have much better basic human rights in countries/areas where religion is not given power over general societal matters.
And how about those religious police forces in certain Muslim countries? Wow, that's law enforcement at it's finest! Must be a joyous place to live with all that security.
In the former Soviet Union religion wasn't given power over societal matters-I doubt most of us would have found that a joyous place to live either.
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Funny, I know plenty of people who are not members of any religion, yet they somehow not only have managed to avoid crazy consumerist lifestyle, but are also able to ponder important, profound things with depth and intellect.
I've never said atheists couldn't do any good at all.
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Depends on what you see as more important, of course; if it's "will I go to Heaven when I die" or "man those gay people are such disgusting sinners", I guess many religious people are ponderers.
First, I am going to heaven so I don't worry about it too much, second we are all sinners-some repent and turn from their sin, others don't.
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 13:53
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
No, I've read my share of history-conflict is the norm for our species maybe not wars every day of the week, but there's always trouble brewing-
Job 5:7 man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.Seriously!? You just go ahead and utilise MORE reporter bias to try to make the same point. History also doesn't make a point of documenting mundane, every day life where people are just going about their business - it tends to record events of note. A second layer of bias is that people who read history, tend to read that which interests them, so you have two functions of removal from a proportionately accurate depiction of ordinary life. But you go ahead and believe that all of life was essentially like the whole of Braveheart all of the time. There is "always trouble brewing" somewhere around the world in these times too. Just because it seems to happen much more slowly for you observing it in real time, does not mean it won't seem equally as relentless to someone reading a historical account in years to come. There may or may not be more or less conflict per capita now than then, but I'm not sure your idea about the causation is too accurate.
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Btw-I do 'actually go out and interact with people' and not just sit at home looking at news-while there are some decent people out there, there just as many who are self centered, egotistical, cruel, arrogant-and some of them would just as soon cut your throat if you got in their way.
Out of every 50 people you know, how many does this account for? Because for me, the number is very small. Perhaps I am just luckier than you - who knows. One person's anecdotal account doesn't really amount to anything. How about we look at the number of crimes committed per year per capita and see if we think it is the majority of people, or a small minority who are devoid of morality.
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As for 'decent people'-change the circumstances of things in their area, inject a little hunger, poverty, absence of the rule of law, disaster, etc- and I think you would be startled at the changes 'nice' people can undergo. Human depravity exists and it is an ugly thing.:p
Yes, and it exists regardless of religion. It is called human nature. Again, calling on the extremes of circumstance to prove that humans aren't perfect moral beings does not threaten the theory of its natural sources.
