Hypothesis: the more educated you are the less likely you are to be religious - by SubJeff
Vasquez on 7/2/2012 at 14:15
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
In the former Soviet Union religion wasn't given power over societal matters-I doubt most of us would have found that a joyous place to live either.
You're right. However the communism in Soviet Union, and also North Korea, was and is actually not far from a fanatic form of an organised religion, complete with the lack of individual rights and worship of "the great leader" (easily comparable with "saviour", "prophet" etc.).
Which, I guess, proves that many people seem to have the need to follow something "bigger" and be dictated how to live their lives to a detail. Doesn't need to be a god either, the outcome is quite similar when the worship thing is taken to extremes, whether you worship Indra, Christian God, Allah, Kim Jong-il or Stalin.
Now I'm depressed :(
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 14:17
Ah false syllogisms. Not all atheism is benign != all atheism is not benign.
Likewise, bad stuff happening without religion != religion is nothing to do with bad stuff.
It cuts both ways of course, not all religion is bad either. But that's not the topic, the topic is (originally) is religiosity negatively correlated to intelligence (studies seem to suggest that maybe, yes)? And later is altruism / morality inherent in humans, or did religion have anything to do with it (studies suggest that it is inherent, regardless of beliefs)?
So not sure what this all added anyway. Feels like the usual cheap shots at atheism a la "Stalin was an atheist" etc..
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 14:25
Quote Posted by Independent Thief
First, I am going to heaven so I don't worry about it too much, second we are all sinners-some repent and turn from their sin, others don't.
This is a basic philosophical problem with religion. The phrase, "I am going to heaven" implies an absolute truth. Not that you believe you are going, you ARE going. You not only believe that such a place exists, on the basis of no evidence, you also trust several millennia of re-translating, re-writing, political re-shuffling of which books should be included in the bible, political and cultural interference in how the church interprets scripture and its various concessions to modern cultural trends "Hey guys, for no reason at all, we are now deciding that it's OK to accept that some people are homosexual", you STILL believe that your lifestyle and beliefs mean that when you die, a "soul" which you also believe without evidence, will be transported to a different realm to live for eternity in bliss.
And yet you state this in absolute terms, as if this is a certainty. Where's the humility?
I think this is why atheism and science are much more palatable to me - the acceptance that we could be wrong. It is the sanctimonious "I know where I'm going when I die, you poor soul"
certainty that people exude of their beliefs which make me glad I don't believe. One grand moment I remember well is a friend telling me "so you don't believe in anything beyond this? I feel sorry for you, how boring your existence must be." while I smiled politely and pondered in amazement at how plants contained proteins which can use light energy to create electron gradients which power molecular machinery to create molecules which ultimately feed all life on earth and that this happened as a result of iterative shuffling of information stored in nucleotides. It's like Douglas Adams famously said "Is it not enough to find the garden beautiful without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it?".
The notion that a bunch of bronze age folk tales somehow make life more fulfilling is highly dull compared with the actual complexity we can experience in what is observable. There might be more beyond this - who knows? The point is, no one does and replacing who knows with "I do, it's God" is equally dull. Reading homer's Odyssey was more interesting than the bible and at least doesn't try putting ideas into anyone's heads that we end up in Hades when we die.
DDL on 7/2/2012 at 14:49
Guys guys guys: stop and look at yourselves! You're arguing with independent thief, ffs. Independent thief is to rational thought what lost_soul is to steam.
I mean, you only need to step back and read what he's writing:
Is he REALLY arguing that 'medical care, decent access to food and clean water and the ability to raise children in relative safety' are the UNGODLY SINS OF THE HEATHEN MASSES, and that we should all be murdering each other in the name of the lord like good folks used to? ......fuck me, he is.
Muzman on 7/2/2012 at 14:59
Eh, history is full of war and strife and fear. That's what it's for. The more I read about the stuff not interesting enough for history the more I think people have led largely peaceful lives, if often difficult and filled with terrible disease.
Of course it's not like things were better back then than they are now. But the only people who have had longer working hours, say, were the slaves of the recent past. The cruelest living conditions ever are barely one hundred years gone. Progress isn't a straight line.
There's plenty who revel in the dimmest view of people possible. I think they take perverse delight in humans as damned scum doomed to the flames with only one or two excellent folks every now and then.
However we might not be all sunshine and roses, but I've found plenty to suggest that for many thousands of years now people have been people. My being able to expect some goodwill and lack of fear around other people as I walk down the street is more the norm than the anomaly. It's kind of heartening actually.
faetal on 7/2/2012 at 15:01
Muzman, I suspect it is easier to imagine oneself as superior if the rest of humanity is labelled as savage somehow. Another reason why religious memes are quite successful, the allow the believer to imagine that they are part of a better class of people who are destined for higher things. With regards to fear of society - I found that once I stopped reading the news daily, my constant worry about assault diminished hugely. I've actually been assaulted within the last 6 months too (despite looking like someone not worth fucking with), but apart from a month of two of feeling a bit more alert than usual, no lasting effects on my view of fellow humans. The overwhelming majority of people I encounter are far from perfect (which is fine, it's not as I'm even close), but generally good people. When people drop money, the person behind (unless there are intervening factors such as poverty) is still more likely to tap the person on the shoulder and say "here, you dropped this" (not testable, but this is consistent with the attitudes of people I meet).
DDL - just as I had finished my last response, I realised that it is all in vain. If someone gives the line "I am going to heaven, so I'm not worried" you know that no amount of debate is going to allow for information which goes against religious dogma. So yeah, I'm done.
jay pettitt on 7/2/2012 at 15:15
Quote Posted by faetal
If someone gives the line "I am going to heaven, so I'm not worried" you know that no amount of debate is going to allow for information which goes against religious dogma. So yeah, I'm done.
To be fair, Indie Thief was prompted there.
Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 15:18
This whole thing is going in multiple directions.:p
Quote Posted by Vasquez
You're right. However the communism in Soviet Union, and also North Korea, was and is actually not far from a fanatic form of an organised religion, complete with the lack of individual rights and worship of "the great leader" (easily comparable with "saviour", "prophet" etc.).
Which, I guess, proves that many people seem to have the need to follow something "bigger" and be dictated how to live their lives to a detail. Doesn't need to be a god either, the outcome is quite similar when the worship thing is taken to extremes, whether you worship Indra, Christian God, Allah, Kim Jong-il or Stalin.
Now I'm depressed :(
So what you are saying is when man rejects God-man elevates himself (or a representative dictator/charismatic leader etc) to be their replacement 'god'. I agree:thumb:
jay pettitt on 7/2/2012 at 15:22
I disagree.
Oh no. Pistols at dawn?
