Hypothesis: the more educated you are the less likely you are to be religious

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 15:25

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

So what you are saying is when man rejects God-man elevates himself (or a representative dictator/charismatic leader etc) to be their replacement 'god'. I agree:thumb:

Yes, every time, without fail, following that exact formula - it's the only thing that can happen... :rolleyes:

Without divine origin, humans are just a tiny mote of dust on a slightly larger mote of dust in a huge ocean of dust motes. We are tiny, ephemeral, irrelevant and no one except ourselves cares about us. We have a nice long lifespan (75 years is pretty damn good going when you look at the range in animals), a complex set of emotions and cognitive capabilities, able to feel wonder, love, fear, happiness, hate - a beautiful array of, in chemical terms, fairly mundane re-arrangements of states in response to environment factors, but as beings trapped in our own reality bubble, it's a constantly morphing tapestry of the most amazing and diverse sensations. Yes some people think this isn't enough and want to believe that this is just some stupid little training grounds for entrance into heaven. Religion elevates humans to the role of "God's special children", we are the sole focus of the universe, we are special, we are personally loved by the entity which created reality and the universe. Without god, we are, as I said, just infinitesimal specks on a piece of rock hurtling through an insurmountably large universe.

And you think it is ATHEISM which is the arrogant stance?

Vasquez on 7/2/2012 at 15:25

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

So what you are saying is when man rejects God-man elevates himself (or a representative dictator/charismatic leader etc) to be their replacement 'god'. I agree:thumb:

No, that's not what I'm saying.

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 15:52

I suppose part of the beauty of belief is that you get to spend your whole life believing you are going to heaven when you die and, if this happens to be false, are none the wiser. Yet another reason why it's such a wildly successful set of ideas I guess.

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 15:53

Quote Posted by faetal

It is called human nature. Again, calling on the extremes of circumstance to prove that humans aren't perfect moral beings does not threaten the theory of its natural sources.

As for 'natural sources' of human behavior-I'm a Theistic evolutionist so I don't buy into the whole 'god of the gaps' idea, I believe in the sovereignty of God and that the Creator can lay things out to run by natural processes and if he desires-step out and circumvent those same processes when He wants to-so I have no problem either natural or supernatural origins of things.

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So not sure what this all added anyway. Feels like the usual cheap shots at atheism a la "Stalin was an atheist" etc..

Not taking cheap shots at all-I'm just pointing out that atheism=progress/religion=primitive savagery doesn't fit the historical reality as everyone has admitted.

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This is a basic philosophical problem with religion. The phrase, "I am going to heaven" implies an absolute truth. Not that you believe you are going, you ARE going. You not only believe that such a place exists, on the basis of no evidence, you also trust several millennia of re-translating, re-writing, political re-shuffling of which books should be included in the bible, political and cultural interference in how the church interprets scripture and its various concessions to modern cultural trends "Hey guys, for no reason at all, we are now deciding that it's OK to accept that some people are homosexual", you STILL believe that your lifestyle and beliefs mean that when you die, a "soul" which you also believe without evidence, will be transported to a different realm to live for eternity in bliss.

I believe heaven exists and that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the authentication of it's existence (that's a whole other topic). Also while the Bible has been retranslated and passed down for millennia-we have evidence (dead sea scrolls, early fragments of the New Testament, citations from the early church fathers etc) that the text we have today is a fair representation of what was written down then (with some textual variants that don't effect doctrine). As for political reshuffling, the main issue there was the inclusion of the apocrypha (the roman catholics included it after the Council of Trent, the reformed churches didn't). As for acceptance of cultural trends, our church doesn't believe it's ok to be homosexual-we call on them to repent as we would any one who is engaging in any sexual sin like hetro promiscuity.

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And yet you state this in absolute terms, as if this is a certainty. Where's the humility?

My humility is confessing that Jesus Christ alone is the source of my salvation, nothing I have done has or could ever earn it.

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I think this is why atheism and science are much more palatable to me - the acceptance that we could be wrong. It is the sanctimonious "I know where I'm going when I die, you poor soul" certainty that people exude of their beliefs which make me glad I don't believe. One grand moment I remember well is a friend telling me "so you don't believe in anything beyond this? I feel sorry for you, how boring your existence must be." while I smiled politely and pondered in amazement at how plants contained proteins which can use light energy to create electron gradients which power molecular machinery to create molecules which ultimately feed all life on earth and that this happened as a result of iterative shuffling of information stored in nucleotides. It's like Douglas Adams famously said "Is it not enough to find the garden beautiful without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it?".

I love science, it's the exploration of the works of God. What you see going on in garden and the amazing natural processes that drive it that He laid out should open your eyes to Him-I find it sad you don't see what I do. But it's obvious there is nothing I can do to help you in that regard.

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The notion that a bunch of bronze age folk tales somehow make life more fulfilling is highly dull compared with the actual complexity we can experience in what is observable. There might be more beyond this - who knows? The point is, no one does and replacing who knows with "I do, it's God" is equally dull. Reading homer's Odyssey was more interesting than the bible and at least doesn't try putting ideas into anyone's heads that we end up in Hades when we die.

I think those 'bronze age' people were struggling to write a record of a reality they were confronted with and inspired by-I don't find it dull at all.

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 16:02

Quote Posted by DDL

Guys guys guys: stop and look at yourselves! You're arguing with independent thief, ffs. Independent thief is to rational thought what lost_soul is to steam.

More spam:rolleyes: There's nothing wrong with my 'rational thought' at all.

Quote Posted by DDL

I mean, you only need to step back and read what he's writing:
Is he REALLY arguing that 'medical care, decent access to food and clean water and the ability to raise children in relative safety' are the UNGODLY SINS OF THE HEATHEN MASSES, and that we should all be murdering each other in the name of the lord like good folks used to? ......fuck me, he is.

I never said that modern technology are sins, what I was getting at is that we are really no better than our ancestors in terms of our behavior-we just have more toys.

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 16:03

Quote Posted by jay pettitt

I disagree.

Oh no. Pistols at dawn?

No silly-a knife to the back from the shadows...you really think I fight fair? ;)

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 16:12

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

So your god appears much the same as no god at all. Fair enough. Notable lack of stepping outside of the processes since reliable recording methods came into play..

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Not taking cheap shots at all-I'm just pointing out that atheism=progress/religion=primitive savagery doesn't fit the historical reality as everyone has admitted.

A lot of straw men flying around in here. No one said that religion = primitive savagery. It can hardly be argued that science = progress though, without recourse to atheism or religion.

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I believe heaven exists and that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the authentication of it's existence (that's a whole other topic). Also while the Bible has been retranslated and passed down for millennia-we have evidence (dead sea scrolls, early fragments of the New Testament, citations from the early church fathers etc) that the text we have today is a fair representation of what was written down then (with some textual variants that don't effect doctrine).

As for political reshuffling, the main issue there was the inclusion of the apocrypha (the roman catholics included it after the Council of Trent, the reformed churches didn't). As for acceptance of cultural trends, our church doesn't believe it's ok to be homosexual-we call on them to repent as we would any one who is engaging in any sexual sin like hetro promiscuity.

Then I believe your are morally reprehensible since it is becoming ever clearer that sexuality is determined physiologically and not habitually and that it can also be observed in other species. Calling on someone to repent their natural sexuality is completely immoral and one of the many reasons why a lot of people who *are* moving on, are turning away from religion. What does someone else's sexual preferences have to do with you, your church or any assumed deity?

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My humility is confessing that Jesus Christ alone is the source of my salvation, nothing I have done has or could ever earn it.

That's not humility, that is rote and designed to give you entrance to heaven. That's like I humbly tend a bar in exchange for £6 per hour - you are working on the assumption that you are being rewarded with eternal life, so it's hardly humble. My humility comes from the fact that I have one life, I will be forgotten in the mists of time after I die and that the best I can do is to utilise what I have the best I can, to do the most good with it and, should I have a family, try to pass onto them as much as I can before I die. No eternal reward, no special status as a personal project of the creator of THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, just a sentient animal, living a single life, for a finite period of time. I don't know all of the answers, I don't claim to, and that which I do know, I worked damned hard to learn, rather than assume I know the unknowable, just because I was raised that way.

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I love science, it's the exploration of the works of God.

In your opinion. To >90% of scientists, it is the exploration of nature. If you want to rename god nature to fit a semantic argument, then go ahead. It is the same nature which created parasites whose life cycle necessitates invading the eyeballs of people in areas of low sanitation and gradually turns them blind. In the context of nature, this makes perfect sense, as a design of god, it kind of makes him appear to be a sadistic dick. So making starving kids blind to preserve the continuation of a species of worm is fine, but having sexual urges for someone of the same sex = evil? Is this some kind of sick joke? If god did exist, I sure as shit wouldn't revere him.

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What you see going on in garden and the amazing natural processes that drive it that He laid out should open your eyes to Him-I find it sad you don't see what I do. But it's obvious there is nothing I can do to help you in that regard.

It's ok, I can live without your, er, help. I find it sad that you require an anthropomorphic entity to explain such complexity. but go ahead and be sanctimonious, it's what a lot of religious people do very well. Feel free to pity me, I get more wonder out of the complexity of life than you ever will, because I can see through the glitter.

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I think those 'bronze age' people were struggling to write a record of a reality they were confronted with and inspired by-I don't find it dull at all.

It's dull compared with the scientific version. It's some very insipid folk tales which contradict one another in various places and lack any real continuity. I prefer Tolkien if I'm honest. Strange how god was unable to impart any information to these people that wasn't technologically in context. Strange how god didn't clue them into germ theory so they could have developed antiseptics and prevented a whole tonne of agonising deaths, but no. Now go ahead and give me the "oh my poor child, god merely works in mysterious ways" line, because it takes me right back to god being a sadistic dick, if these explanations are to be believed.

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 16:14

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

More spam:rolleyes: There's nothing wrong with my 'rational thought' at all.

Except that it is riddled with logical fallacies that even a 1st year undergrad philosophy student could massacre. Petitio principii arguments AHOY.

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I never said that modern technology are sins, what I was getting at is that we are really no better than our ancestors in terms of our behavior-we just have more toys.

Probably because human behaviour is based on our natural intrinsic values, regardless of religious influence.

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 16:15

Quote Posted by faetal

We live in a universe whose laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc are written in such a way that given the right ingredients, organic compounds, heat/light, the right distance from the sun, a moon to stabilize the earth's rotation to reduce storms etc etc and that enviroment will manufacture living creatures that will grow, diversify, adapt and evolve until beings are formed which have the cognition and consciousness to look at the glory around them and study it in depth-to send probes to other worlds, to sequence their own DNA and many other things. To dismiss that fact as being random chance is truly the arrogant stance. We were MEANT to be here! As for being the 'sole focus of the universe', I really don't know-there are hundreds of other worlds out there and there's no telling what God has been up to in this vast universe, but I do know we are special to Him from what He has revealed to us.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Soli Deo Gloria!:D

DDL on 7/2/2012 at 16:27

I have to say, I find this sort of mindset fascinating. Terrifying, admittedly, but also fascinating. It's that you don't seem to have even a scintilla of doubt, even when spouting insanity.

You propose that god is the divine creator but that also evolution is a-ok, thus apparently you are entirely comfortable with the millions of years of death, pain and struggle, the interbreeding with, and near-simultaneous annihilation of the neanderthals, all while god sits back and does nothing. Over thousands of years, many religions form, many people and animals are sacrificed to gods that are simply the wrong god, wars are fought, hundreds of thousands die in the name of god or gods that are simply the wrong god, all while god sits back and does nothing.

Suddenly, BAM: god appears for a brief period back conveniently JUST before reliable documentation, does a whole fuckton of insanely reprehensible/incoherent stuff (depending on whether you accept the old testament or not), then dumps his kid on us and promptly mellows out enormously, but in a parting shot also kills his own kid. Who is also him.

And then returns to sitting back and doing nothing. We continue murdering each other, god does nothing.

And this is the person you want to spend eternity with? :tsktsk:

All your arguments regarding how people haven't changed in thousands of years, other than getting better at killing each other...how is that supposed to be an argument in favour of god? All your arguments about the church reforming and doing X Y and Z: that's simply people doing people-stuff: how is THAT supposed to be an argument in favour of god?

And finally,

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What you see going on in garden and the amazing natural processes that drive it that He laid out

If he laid out all these amazing natural processes, why ARE SO MANY OF THEM SO FUCKING BAAAAD? Seriously, look out the window. Anything green and plantlike? HOME OF WORLD'S MOST RETARDED ENZYME. Also, those eyes you're looking out with? INSIDE-OUT FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Even if we were to posit that god DOES exist, the only possible conclusion to all this is that god is a massive, massive cockbag. (possibly also incompetent)

So either you're happy to worship a bumbling asshat, or you really haven't thought this all through.