Hypothesis: the more educated you are the less likely you are to be religious

Muzman on 7/2/2012 at 16:33

Didn't we do the Anthropic Principle a couple of pages back ;)

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 16:53

Quote Posted by faetal

Then I believe your are morally reprehensible since it is becoming ever clearer that sexuality is determined physiologically and not habitually and that it can also be observed in other species. Calling on someone to repent their natural sexuality is completely immoral and one of the many reasons why a lot of people who *are* moving on, are turning away from religion. What does someone else's sexual preferences have to do with you, your church or any assumed deity?

I don't deny sexuality in some cases may be physiologically influenced, I've read about studies on certain transgender people who have had genetic problems (including literally having male and female parts!), in those cases there's obviously issues going beyond personal choice. However I'm equally sure that in many cases it is indeed a choice or tragically a learned behavior due to victimization-I recall a video on Youtube I saw a few years ago by a homosexual man who was chatting about his early childhood and mentioned his first 'sexual experience' was at 6 years old at the hands of a 15 year old-in other words he was molested! While I won't go into any deeper details, I have someone I know who is very close to me who recalled a horrifying story about a man who attempted to molest her at a sleepover years ago whose son later on 'came out'-was that just a genetic accident? I don't think so! The genetic cases need medical treatment, the victims need counseling, and those who are doing it for the hell of it need warning of the consequences for persisting in their willful rebellion against God and nature.

So you can call me immoral, reprehensible, evil etc-it doesn't matter, truth is truth whether society accepts it or not.

Quote Posted by faetal

That's not humility, that is rote and designed to give you entrance to heaven. That's like I humbly tend a bar in exchange for £6 per hour - you are working on the assumption that you are being rewarded with eternal life, so it's hardly humble. My humility comes from the fact that I have one life, I will be forgotten in the mists of time after I die and that the best I can do is to utilise what I have the best I can, to do the most good with it and, should I have a family, try to pass onto them as much as I can before I die. No eternal reward, no special status as a personal project of the creator of THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, just a sentient animal, living a single life, for a finite period of time. I don't know all of the answers, I don't claim to, and that which I do know, I worked damned hard to learn, rather than assume I know the unknowable, just because I was raised that way.

I was given eternal life by the will of God-it's no reward, I can assure you I am in many ways even nastier than you are. I don't claim to know everything either, and I assure you my upbringing didn't have squat to do with my theological views-they have developed over time as God has opened my eyes to various things.

Quote Posted by faetal

In your opinion. To >90% of scientists, it is the exploration of nature. If you want to rename god nature to fit a semantic argument, then go ahead. It is the same nature which created parasites whose life cycle necessitates invading the eyeballs of people in areas of low sanitation and gradually turns them blind. In the context of nature, this makes perfect sense, as a design of god, it kind of makes him appear to be a sadistic dick. So making starving kids blind to preserve the continuation of a species of worm is fine, but having sexual urges for someone of the same sex = evil? Is this some kind of sick joke? If god did exist, I sure as shit wouldn't revere him.

The material universe isn't a playground, it's more like boot camp (to quote Dennis Alexander) or the octagon in a way. To develop and evolve there has to be pain as well as pleasure, life as well as death. To paraphrase Ken Miller, God laid out a universe where there would be grief and joy and give us the freedom for our choices and actions to actually mean something. Also if you read the laws in the Old Testament-you'll find there is a lot of things related to sanitation that if followed would do much to avoid suffering in a non-technological society.

Quote Posted by faetal

It's ok, I can live without your, er, help. I find it sad that you require an anthropomorphic entity to explain such complexity. but go ahead and be sanctimonious, it's what a lot of religious people do very well. Feel free to pity me, I get more wonder out of the complexity of life than you ever will, because I can see through the glitter.

I'm not being sanctimonious, you're like a man with a blindfold on grabbing a tuft of grass yelling-"THIS IS ALL THAT EXISTS" all the time not recognizing the beauty around him. I don't bear you any hostility at all.

Quote Posted by faetal

It's dull compared with the scientific version. It's some very insipid folk tales which contradict one another in various places and lack any real continuity. I prefer Tolkien if I'm honest. Strange how god was unable to impart any information to these people that wasn't technologically in context.

Why would God put in E=MC2 or other advanced concepts the human race wouldn't understand for 99% of it's existence? To quote Calvin "The Scriptures speak in the language of the marketplace" in order that the ordinary person can understand them.

Quote Posted by faetal

Strange how god didn't clue them into germ theory so they could have developed antiseptics and prevented a whole tonne of agonising deaths, but no. Now go ahead and give me the "oh my poor child, god merely works in mysterious ways" line, because it takes me right back to god being a sadistic dick, if these explanations are to be believed.

As I've stated before, the Old Testament laws if followed closely would have greatly reduced death via disease. What God does in the universe He made is right-period. When I look at the world around me-I'm surprised God hasn't bumped us all off for the way we regard Him and the way we treat each other.

DDL on 7/2/2012 at 17:11

Not eating shellfish: the cure for cancer.

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 17:15

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

We live in a universe whose laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc are written in such a way that given the right ingredients, organic compounds, heat/light, the right distance from the sun, a moon to stabilize the earth's rotation to reduce storms etc etc and that enviroment will manufacture living creatures that will grow, diversify, adapt and evolve until beings are formed which have the cognition and consciousness to look at the glory around them and study it in depth-to send probes to other worlds, to sequence their own DNA and many other things.

Petitio principii. First you musy establish that those laws are written before proclaiming it debate. It is a logical fallacy to start with an assumption which begs the question. No writing is necessary in a secular model, you are making an extraordinary claim of a creator, so now you need extraordinary evidence. If you argue you don't need evidence, then this is not a rational debate, but a sermon.

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To dismiss that fact as being random chance is truly the arrogant stance.

Petitio principii you have not established this as fact, merely proclaimed it. Also, it is not random chance, it is chemical interaction with respect to the environment - hardly random. Also, why is it arrogant? Do you know what arrogant means? How is me seeing myself as a product of nature, more arrogant than you seeing yourself as sculpted in the image of the creator of the universe? Your powers of reasoning are truly a thing to behold...

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We were MEANT to be here!

Petitio principii. You have not established this, so can not just proclaim it. That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

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As for being the 'sole focus of the universe', I really don't know-there are hundreds of other worlds out there and there's no telling what God has been up to in this vast universe, but I do know we are special to Him from what He has revealed to us.

Really? Where does it say in the bible that there are other worlds with other bibles and other Jesuses? It doesn't? So you can just...make things up ad hoc to suit the ever changing picture of the nature of the universe as provided by science? How very, very convenient!

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Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.. In other words, what is your point? Maybe we can insert some excerpts from other religious texts of spurious provenance as well? Why give Christianity the focus?

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 17:16

Quote Posted by DDL

I have to say, I find this sort of mindset fascinating. Terrifying, admittedly, but also fascinating. It's that you don't seem to have even a scintilla of doubt, even when spouting insanity.

There's nothing to be 'terrified' of, I'm a dude that likes to make levels with dromed and lives a normal life, goes to church and works an average job. To try to twist my words to make me look like a monster is at best, just more spam, at worst an attempt to demonize myself and other Christians-from what I've seen online from a number of atheists-that seems to be a consistent attack pattern, keep throwing mud and hope it sticks-believe me I've seen atheist behavior in various formats that you would literally have to see to believe. I'm not insane in any way shape or form.

Quote Posted by DDL

You propose that god is the divine creator but that also evolution is a-ok, thus apparently you are entirely comfortable with the millions of years of death, pain and struggle, the interbreeding with, and near-simultaneous annihilation of the neanderthals, all while god sits back and does nothing. Over thousands of years, many religions form, many people and animals are sacrificed to gods that are simply the wrong god, wars are fought, hundreds of thousands die in the name of god or gods that are simply the wrong god, all while god sits back and does nothing.

Evolution doesn't always mean 'losers get eaten', reproductive success is the key, the winners are just more successful in having offspring. As for the neanderthals, I don't know if they would count as human or not (I don't know if they had souls or not)-they were an evolutionary offshoot that did have some genetic differences (although they could interbreed). I recall listening to one guy a while back say he thought the interbreeding is what Gen 6 was talking about 'the sons of god taking wives from the daughters of men' but I confess that's just speculation.

Quote Posted by DDL

Suddenly, BAM: god appears for a brief period back conveniently JUST before reliable documentation, does a whole fuckton of insanely reprehensible/incoherent stuff (depending on whether you accept the old testament or not), then dumps his kid on us and promptly mellows out enormously, but in a parting shot also kills his own kid. Who is also him.

And then returns to sitting back and doing nothing. We continue murdering each other, god does nothing.

And this is the person you want to spend eternity with? :tsktsk:

Actually miracles in the Old Testament were few and far between (with the exception of Exodus) so it wasn't like God was doing a miracle every 5 minutes. As for the rest of the rambling about the Bible and utter blasphemy-I could waste time trying to debunk it-but you've shown me already you won't listen to anything I say-so I won't waste my time.

Independent Thief on 7/2/2012 at 17:32

Quote Posted by faetal

Well, I've quoted Scripture so I could be labeled as sermonizing-however I would say that your 'extraordinary claim' of no meaning higher than material existence could be leveled back with equal force so it's basically meaningless.

Quote Posted by faetal

I never said I was 'sculped in the image of the creator of the universe' I'm a product of nature via the predestination of God.

Quote Posted by faetal

I didn't make things up, I never said there were 'other bibles' and 'other Jesuses' in the first place. What God has out there and how He relates to it I have no earthly idea-but I'm sure it's an interesting study I'd be happy to know about.

Quote Posted by faetal

Ah the twisted, out of context quote.:rolleyes:
Since I'm a Christian-wouldn't I give Christianity the focus? I won't waste any more of your time either.

DDL on 7/2/2012 at 17:35

"You asked me some questions I didn't want to answer/don't have answers for, so I'll call you a big meanie head and thus avoid answering them"

I never at any point said you were a monster. I just said your utterly certain, unwaveringly confident mindset is terrifying. Believe me, as scientists we learn to question everything. Everything. Doubt is a constant constant companion. If someone could ever provide a rational sensible explanation for the existence of god, or any religion, ever, that went beyond "yeah well, humans make stuff up, and believe me, this one's a DOOZY"....hell: I'd actually consider it. The fact that nobody has ever done so is not...encouraging.

I'm an evidence-based creature. I analyze the available evidence, and make logical conclusions based on that, knowing full well that my conclusions are usually based on limited data from the phenomenon I'm observing. If I want to double check that evolution works, I can actually go into the lab and doing a fucking AMES test if I like. BAM: evolution still best explanation for how shit works.

If I apply this to religion, we have on one side the perfectly plausible explanations that religions act as herd control, groupthink enhancers, tribal identity enhancers and generally (if they're good religions) personal higiene guides -NO SHELLFISH! The religions would also benefit from a decent level of outgroup hatred, to smash down all those "not us" religions. The more successful religions would also be highly adaptable, willing to pull "no true scotsmen" and backpedal shamelessly as and when circumstances change. Also there would be lots of religions, all utterly mutually exclusive, and many of them would've died out entirely through failure to be successful in one or more of the above categories.

On the other side, the possibility that ONE out of all these hundreds and hundreds of religions is correct, that god actually exists and set out rules that have been hilariously mistranslated multiple times by massively fallible humans, that god happily tolerates grotesque levels of horror and brutality, both deliberate and accidental (though hey: it's god -'accidental' doesn't exist anymore), and that god deliberately created an assbackwards universe just so it could evolve one assbackwards organism (and fucktons of other equally assbackwards organisms, many of whom seem to exist purely to make our lives miserable) on one planet in one absolutely GIHUNGOUS mass of empty space.

Well, I can't exactly go into the lab and test this, but when one explanation is both sensible, introduces no unknown unprovable variables, and is utterly blind to suffering through dint of being essentially unguided and random, and the other is insane on every level...

I'm going with the former.

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 17:38

Okay, this might be my last response to you for you are, and I'm being polite, just not very adept at dialectic debate.

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

Eschewing a great deal of very valid research (which you have ignored in favour of concentrating on transgender cases) and pulling out a YouTube video and a personal anecdote in order that you can keep being a self-righteous homophobe? Smooooth. I have quite a few gay friends who just reached sexual maturity without it coming with any accompanying attraction for the opposite sex. It just happens and is linked to a corresponding distribution in populations which indicates a natural rather than cultural origin. This has been backed up with numerous studies and there are even decent systematic reviews starting to emerge, which is when you know that science has become fairly established. But it doesn't align with your religious beliefs so you will use confirmation bias (searching only for articles which buttress your already held beliefs) and cognitive dissonance (rejection out of hand of information which conflicts with your beliefs) to carry on having prejudice against people whose only crime was to be born with different hormonal parameters that slightly altered some of their psychological secondary sexual characteristics. But hey, guess what - it's a totally sustainable lifestyle, hurts no one, involves love and apart from those who choose to see homosexuals as wrong are just like everyone else except for who they choose to share intimacy with - a detail which is no one's business but their own.

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The genetic cases need medical treatment, the victims need counseling, and those who are doing it for the hell of it need warning of the consequences for persisting in their willful rebellion against God and nature.

You need counselling. Genetic predisposition can not be treated - that's like saying how do you treat someone for having blue eyes? People who are minding their own business need no interference at all from sanctimonious, puritanical busy bodies who believe in religion. Religion is YOUR choice, don't get in other people's business with it.

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So you can call me immoral, reprehensible, evil etc-it doesn't matter, truth is truth whether society accepts it or not.

Truth is also truth whether you accept it or not. I find you morally lacking when it comes to accepting diversity. i also find your looking down on people whose sexuality is not the same as yours to be arrogant and elitist. One minor detail - if god doesn't like gays, why does he make so many of them?

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I was given eternal life by the will of God-it's no reward, I can assure you I am in many ways even nastier than you are.

I can believe it from your nice little homophobic rant above.

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I don't claim to know everything either, and I assure you my upbringing didn't have squat to do with my theological views-they have developed over time as God has opened my eyes to various things.

So you've experience god first-hand? As in, there was no explanation other than god? Please describe this experience and if it is found to be ambiguous or lacking then at the very least I can write you off as being of questionable psychological health and perhaps be done with this conversation.

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If you read Lord of the Rings, there are lots of good tips about swordplay, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to start worshipping Sauron.

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No, I am not blindfolded, I can see the grass, I love the grass - I can see so much. What I can not see is a supernatural being who made it all. It's plenty beautiful enough without that. If you need more, then I guess you just aren't satisfied with the beauty right under your nose.

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When I was born, I knew nothing. By reading the amassed work of others, I now know so much more about the nature of the universe. Are you saying that the man who created the universe, who indirectly penned the bible, couldn't also have indirectly have penned the amassed literature of science? Is he not up to the task? Does he find it tedious? No wait - I've got it! HE DID IT BY LEAVING IT ALL HERE FOR US TO DISCOVER! Shock horror, god existing looks exactly the same as god not existing again. Fancy that.

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As I've stated before, the Old Testament laws if followed closely would have greatly reduced death via disease.

They would also have resulted in a hell of a lot of slavery, rape, subjugation of women, torture and murder of different cultures, child killing - you name it. The OT is basically one of the most vile pieces of literature in history on its own, let alone with people holding it aloft as a great manual for humanity.

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What God does in the universe He made is right-period. When I look at the world around me-I'm surprised God hasn't bumped us all off for the way we regard Him and the way we treat each other.

I'm surprised too. It's almost as if there was no god..

DDL on 7/2/2012 at 17:43

I take it back, debating with independent thief is pretty fun.

It does lead to an awful lot of doubletakes (he believes WHAAAT??) but that keeps things interesting.

faetal on 7/2/2012 at 17:46

Quote Posted by Independent Thief

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You say there is a god and heaven? I say there isn't - net result - zero informational movement.

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I never said I was 'sculped in the image of the creator of the universe' I'm a product of nature via the predestination of God.

I'd replace the word god with the word nature. There is nothing special about humans on a cosmic scale. It's very cool being one and I am, like any sentient creature would be, fascinated by how all of this works, but the idea of "created by god, duh" is just a little facile and intellectually unsatisfying. That's like being very hungry and being given a cracker. My mind is hungrier than the "tadaaaa - GOD -" scenario on offer (along with a multitude of other religions - remember, I just believe in one less god than you).

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But all you have to go on is scripture, yet you were offering the chance of other worlds being populated by god also. This is not in scripture and not in science (well, the notion exists in science, but not due to any creator), so yes, you made it up in order to extend your already pretty frail argument. Why not just admit that you are going to hit the god button every time you reach a blind corner and that your stance is backed up by faith and dogma, not by rationale or reasoning? It would save us all a bit of time. You are not debating dialectically, you are asserting universal truths and then attempting condescension ("ah, you poor blinded fool") when people disagree. It is sermonising, not debating.

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Ah the twisted, out of context quote.:rolleyes:
Since I'm a Christian-wouldn't I give Christianity the focus? I won't waste any more of your time either.

Exactly - it's called BIAS. All of the other religions have exactly the same spurious origins as yours (books dating from before accurate recording techniques began) yet you dismiss them out of hand, and then proclaim me a fool for doing the same thing, but with one extra religion? Can you not see the completely fucked logic at work here?