Goldmoon Dawn on 13/1/2010 at 03:12
Quote Posted by kamyk
Could you link me Goldmoon? To discussion on this lie? I am curious about it now.
You realise that in order for me to properly wage this war yet again, I have to go back in time and dig through years worth of crap? If only I could remember what Warrens log in name was at TTLG... that would be a good starting point. Im almost positive that he delivered a portion of the lies right here on TTLG! :eek:
DJ Riff on 13/1/2010 at 08:22
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I could remember what Warrens log in name was at TTLG... that would be a good starting point. Im almost positive that he delivered a portion of the lies right here on TTLG! :eek:
he is. Hey, I'm interested too - never seen a post or an interview where he directly
lied to the community.
Beleg Cúthalion on 13/1/2010 at 14:46
Well, at least this discussion is not again at the point (yet) where TDS-likers are denied any validity just because they like TDS, which appeared to me some time ago as more than just a bad habbit of debating. Oh, and I don't like Papyrus much either, mostly because everyone else uses it.
Just out of curiosity: The corresponding English Wikipedia article for the German "Totschlagsargument" is "Thought-terminating cliché", although Charles Clark's "killer phrase" seems more appropriate. Is there a better word for a strategy of withdrawing someone's discussion foundation with a pseudo argument which renders all of his statements inane? Just like saying everyone who likes TDS simply cannot know what Thief is?
Sneaksie on 13/1/2010 at 14:54
Let's just say that TDS being a "Thief Lite" IMHO, at least attracted new people to the series and they played T1 and T2 too;) This means that it's served a good purpose.
Beleg Cúthalion on 13/1/2010 at 14:59
Doesn't solve the problem or live up to the complexity of the issue, though. :p
Goldmoon Dawn on 13/1/2010 at 15:06
Okay, I would like to withdraw my part of this argument concerning Warren, if that is even what it is. After doing some searching and researching all I am coming up with is a lot of nothing and old TTLG posts that quite frankly make me want to cry. Who cares, you are right.
Warren Spector never lied to us, everything he promised is what was delivered.
There, see? All roses.
:ebil:
The Shroud on 14/1/2010 at 04:40
Quote Posted by kamyk
To rock the boat a tiny bit, there are actually some few things I preferred in TDS to the other two games. Like lockpicking. Lockpicking in TG/TMA/FMs bores the living shit out of me. There is no skill of any kind whatsoever involved other than pressing [ and ]...
...Give me fumbling around with the mouse, finding the right sweet spot, over that any day if that's my only alternative.
Hear, hear. Hell, even Oblivion's lockpicking system was better. I love the first two games as much as anyone here, but they could still be improved in some ways. I know, I know, blasphemy. But despite the fact that TDS was undeniably the worst of the series, it did get
some things right:
Better lockpicking system (even though locks being centered in doors was dumb)
A dagger in place of a sword
Removal of some unnecessary equipment (breath potions, speed potions, slow-fall potions, invisibility potions, gas mines, flash mines, frog-beast eggs, scouting orbs, and flares)
Less click-clacky footsteps for Garrett
Smoother mantling
Ability to mantle and vault over railings
Ability to scale brick/stone walls
Ability to flatten against walls
Player and AI shadows
Better modeling/rendering in general
Now, of course, the list of things TDS got
wrong far exceeds that:
No mission briefing movies
In-game rendered cutscenes
In-game loading points
No transparent glass/windows
No swimmable water
Lousier 1st-person movement (crouching, leaning, etc)
Rag-doll physics instead of convincing knockout animations
Much poorer AI responses/mutterings
Removal of rope arrows
Arrow trails...
The list goes on and on.
The important thing to consider here is, rather than genuflecting wholly to any one game (or two games) in the series, we should recognize where each game went right and where each went wrong. None of the three are absolutely perfect, and there are at least a few things in each game that were superior to the others. Some things in TDP are still better than what has been done in the sequels. Several things in TMA are better than what's in TDP or TDS. And yes, even TDS has a few things which the other games could benefit from. Let's not lose all sense of objectivity and blindly follow our favorite game in
every single aspect. Because that's just tunnel-vision.
Malleus on 14/1/2010 at 14:08
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Removal of some unnecessary equipment (breath potions, speed potions, slow-fall potions, invisibility potions, gas mines, flash mines, frog-beast eggs, scouting orbs, and flares)
Why? Those were fun. They gave more options to the player and the FM makers too. And T1/2 at least had levels and situations where they were useful (like ... water for breath potions).
The Shroud on 14/1/2010 at 18:35
Quote Posted by Malleus
Why? Those were fun. They gave more options to the player and the FM makers too. And T1/2 at least had levels and situations where they were useful (like ... water for breath potions).
Well, in the case of breath potions, they really weren't needed even when there
was water. But anyhow, rather than debate the merits of removing those items, I'm making the point that there
are several things which TDS got
right, despite all its horrendous flaws. Others may disagree with a few of the examples I listed, as diverse gamers are wont to do, but the fact remains - I'm one Thief fan who first fell in love with TDP back in '98, loved TMA, was highly disappointed with TDS,
and...still concede that TDS does have some merits. And I'm not alone in that.
PotatoGuy on 14/1/2010 at 19:03
Quote Posted by The Shroud
And I'm not alone in that.
Indeed. You phrased it exactly like how I think about it. :thumb:
