Purgator on 27/1/2015 at 15:46
If the project were to commence, who then would decide what "improvements" should be made?
One person's improvement could be another's nightmare?
There may be merit in fixing geometry to a certain extent, but it's obvious Dev_Anj wants things a certain way, something that complies with a personal philosophy of design perfection.
I'm sure whoever is on the team would have similar philosophies.
The constant "it's bad because I say it's bad" critiques are neither constructive nor needed to be perfectly honest.
The game is what it is, and of it's time.
Nothing more.
There is a huge range of FMs out there if players want to try something a little different, or they can author their own levels if they so wish.
Dev_Anj on 27/1/2015 at 16:07
Quote Posted by Purgator
The constant "it's bad because I say it's bad" critiques are neither constructive nor needed to be perfectly honest.
My argument was never like that, I stated reasons why I don't like the design philosophy of marble room upon marble room with many guards, and by extension focusing mostly only on the difficulty.
Renault on 27/1/2015 at 16:58
A massive project like this would need a Lead of some sort, someone who has the final say on all things. Everyone else working on the project would have to understand that ahead of time. One idea would be to have one person dedicated to each mission in the game, and then maybe one or two people to oversee the graphical side of things. Probably one writer too, dedicated to keeping the story consistent between all the missions. Maybe someone else for audio and/or scripting.
No small task!
Purgator on 27/1/2015 at 17:30
@Dev_Anj -You've described the design as tedious and lazy, because this is how you perceive it, not because it is.
You're stating it's a design flaw.
Paper condoms are a design flaw, shit flavoured toothpaste wouldn't go down too well.
Telling Picasso his Cubist paintings are crap because I don't like them for being too "Cube-y" is just me being an asshole, it doesn't serve any other purpose other than "Look at me, I dissed Picasso"!
I'm quite sure there wasn't a focus group at Thief HQ on how best to make a level tedious and lazy (maybe there was?).
Things aren't necessarily bad because you have a personal dislike for them, no matter how convincing an argument you put across, paper condoms and shit toothpaste aside.
Slow, methodical progress is part of Thief gameplay, combined with watching patterns and manipulating security systems and all the interesting stuff.
If you dislike it because you prefer a more "interesting" approach, that's on you.
It's not a flaw.
Again, this is where resource management comes into play.
If you squander resources in relatively simple evasion situations, you can face a scenario as you've described, big marble floors with no way across quietly.
You have to embrace the "bread and water" elements of the game, if your playing style has led you there.
If you overcome this obstacle, you may well be prepared for it next time.
vincentlancon on 27/1/2015 at 21:43
Quote Posted by Purgator
@Dev_Anj -You've described the design as tedious and lazy, because this is how you perceive it, not because it is.
You're stating it's a design flaw.
Paper condoms are a design flaw, shit flavoured toothpaste wouldn't go down too well.
Eww
DiMarzio on 27/1/2015 at 22:13
I think I can understand what Dev_Anj's main point is: to make a new version of Thief with more up to date visuals and design and wider experience. It wouldn't be a fix, but more a reeneactment of sort.
So it would need writing the new storylines and missions, a whole new set of textures (well I think that's quite fully covered already), a full redesign of architecture, AI, objectives and this and that. So basically a lot of work, which would need a well functioning design team with common vision and lot's of motivation. It's something to dream about, but as mentioned earlier, it just isn't going to happen, and probably not even worth it (why not just make a whole new campaign with all the ideas?).
I think the discussion about the marble floors got a bit out of hand, though. Now before bashing Dev_Anj any more and just fanatically saying OMs were perfect, I would like to know a few examples of such poor designs. I know such things exist in FMs, but I think the OMs were quite tightly designed, they have very little to fix.
Dev_Anj on 28/1/2015 at 00:42
There's a difference between slow calculated gameplay and making the player walk slowly for five minutes. Slow calculated gameplay actually involves tense gameplay with you managing resources, finding alternative paths, avoiding or subduing guards, manipulating security etc. Walking around on long stretches of marble flooring doesn't really involve any of that. You also need to know that there's this thing called pacing, and what might be tense and fulfilling for a few moments may not be so for a prolonged period of time.
Also, saying that you don't like Cubic paintings because you don't like the cubic style is fine, you're just stating that the style doesn't suit your tastes. You aren't saying anything too offensive.
The original missions were more tighter than most of the fan missions released here yes, but they still have some poorly designed areas. Example:
Inline Image:
http://i.imgur.com/5dY83MO.pngNotice how empty the room is, and note that there are no guards near it. Now first time players are going to waste their time moving very slowly on this, and spend a lot of time just passing through the room. Of course, players who've spent a lot of time playing Thief: Gold will just rush through, but it still feels lazy.
Mofleaker on 28/1/2015 at 02:37
I think if a revision is made, the gameplay of the originals should be preserved, tile floors and all. What should be revised is the visuals using the graphical assets afforded to us by NewDark. That means more brushes, faces, overall just more detail that cannot be achieved with model/texture packs. Of course, adding more physical details subtly changes the gameplay, but if it is done with some thought it could work out quite well.
Increasing the difficulty is pretty silly for a revision, though. If anything a graphical overhaul would be appealing to newbies, not old hardcore fans. People who want difficulty can use a difficulty mod.
FEEL FREE TO RIP THE DOWNWIND THIEVES GUILD TO TINY LITTLE SHREDS AND BUILD IT FROM SCRATCH THOUGH.
uncadonego on 28/1/2015 at 10:05
Funny! All this talk about what is strategic or tedious,etc....then the last comment. I loved the Downwinders area! Somewhere a lady is kissing her cow.
Ricebug on 28/1/2015 at 13:45
As with any game software company, Looking Glass was under a time constraint and had to get the game(s) shipped. So you have empty rooms, bad architecture, and other hiccoughs. Still, it's nice to see folks who want to keep Thief alive with improvements.
