klatremus on 28/1/2015 at 16:21
This idea is very good in theory, but as stated before, highly unlikely. The process of recreating each mission from scratch is just too big of an undertaking unless a team is getting paid. To me, a more likely scenario would be to use the existing maps to smoothen architecture, add objects and loot (perhaps even entire rooms or areas), add/modify objectives, and change difficulty if needed, while keeping the original story intact. One could even use the existing HD Mod, EP2 or NecroAge (or a combination of the three) as a base, in order to cut down on texture work.
As Brethren pointed out though, there would have to be one person in charge (a manager, so to speak). Perhaps even divide the managing to one or a few missions per person. If you could get 4-5 authors together that all were motivated and agreed on the possibilities and limitations of the project, then you could assign 3-4 missions per author and have the other authors beta test. Then the individual author would have the final say on the missions he/she was responsible for.
However, I don't feel this type of project would be worthwhile unless you significantly added to the mission's experience. Yes, it might change the game's feel overall, and yes, not everyone will like it. But I think the majority of the active authors in the community could make a campaign that would please most players.
Purgator on 28/1/2015 at 17:37
..six more weeks of winter...
This is what I said.
Quote Posted by Purgator
Telling Picasso his Cubist paintings are
crap because I don't like them for being too "Cube-y" is just me being an asshole, it doesn't serve any other purpose other than "Look at me, I dissed Picasso"!
It's offensive if you say somebody's work is crap or poorly designed because you have an disinclination toward that design.
It's disrespectful.
"Poorly designed", "tedious", "lazy" and "misused" are disparaging remarks.
Apply these terms to yourself or your own work and see if it makes you feel good?
jardakrupka on 28/1/2015 at 18:48
Quote Posted by klatremus
I totally agree with everything you just said. I may have misunderstood your initial comment. Although I never meant to raise difficulty
alone.
I join and I agree with everything.
Not a bad idea:
Dev_Anj on 28/1/2015 at 23:51
Purgator, I didn't just state that it was poorly designed just like that. I gave reasons why I thought it was poorly designed. The whole point of discussions is to try and analyze points to get a good idea of what can make something better or more enjoyable.
Regardless, I can see that this is going nowhere, and you only seem to want to defend lots and lots of marble flooring with limited resources given to the player for some reason. I'll just ask a rhetorical question: if a level makes a player move very slowly without making him/her do anything else most of the time, would it be an enjoyable experience? If yes, then why?
nbohr1more on 29/1/2015 at 01:35
Quote Posted by Dev_Anj
Purgator, I didn't just state that it was poorly designed just like that. I gave reasons why I thought it was poorly designed. The whole point of discussions is to try and analyze points to get a good idea of what can make something better or more enjoyable.
Regardless, I can see that this is going nowhere, and you only seem to want to defend lots and lots of marble flooring with limited resources given to the player for some reason. I'll just ask a rhetorical question: if a level makes a player move very slowly without making him/her do anything else most of the time, would it be an enjoyable experience? If yes, then why?
The reason for such experiences is to build tension, to set a mood, it's like a slowly rising droning cello note before the symphony
begins... Yes, sometimes this is pretentious but it can be an artistic choice.
Go back and study HL2, there are plenty of places that are devoid of activity that simply set the mood for events yet to come.
Could the area you highlighted be better? Probably. Would changing it change the mood of the level? Absolutely.
There's nothing inherently wrong with doing so but don't be surprised to find hardcore fans upset about the change.
What if someone edited all the slow still shots in Clockwork Orange?
What if someone cut all the instrumental interludes from The Wall?
The dynamics of sparse lonely areas vs active guarded is part of the Thief experience for most taffers.
There's obviously going to be apprehension when what you're proposing might seem like the "Michael Bay" action edition.
(see all the acrimony over Thief 2014...)
I wont presume that your vision is to ruin the games like that but I think you can appreciate how skeptical folks could
be when proposing that we tinker with what's regarded as an acclaimed classic.
Think of all the in-fighting that the Black Mesa team did about their project and whether the controls (etc) should
be modernized a bit to appeal to contemporary tastes. When you revise a loved property, the easiest way to gain mutual agreement is to
stick as close to the original as possible.
Xorak on 29/1/2015 at 01:57
Quote Posted by Purgator
It's offensive if you say somebody's work is crap or poorly designed because you have an disinclination toward that design.
It's disrespectful.
"Poorly designed", "tedious", "lazy" and "misused" are disparaging remarks.
Apply these terms to yourself or your own work and see if it makes you feel good?
Sorry man, I disagree completely with this. To me, it's pure fascism to label these as 'disparaging remarks' and thus use this as an excuse to stop someone from speaking or having an opinion.
I do apply those terms to my own work (and I'm not just talking FMs) all the time as I try and overcome my innate failures as a human being. It actually makes me better (and a better person) by applying terms like these to my own work and to help me see where I fail. So it does make me feel good. If in a fascist world we took away the ability to apply these things to ourselves, we'd all be worthless and nobody would strive to be better.
Besides maybe Picasso's work was poorly designed and maybe he was genius to overcome that poor design. Maybe he was lazy and he was genius enough to overcome the laziness and triteness that crept into his work. Many artists/comedians/musicians struggle with reaching that point where they're just going through the motions of mindlessly recreating what was once groundbreaking. Who's to say Picasso didn't struggle with that after his initial creative plunge into cubism, and that his work reflects that struggle more than anything else?
Dev_Anj on 29/1/2015 at 03:10
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
The reason for such experiences is to build tension, to set a mood, it's like a slowly rising droning cello note before the symphony
begins... Yes, sometimes this is pretentious but it can be an artistic choice.
I know how slow moments can be used in films, books, video games and the like. I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about stuff like where huge spaces are empty and filled with marble, and there isn't much tension built, only the player is forced to walk slowly for long periods of time.
I know that spaces where you move slowly can be used to build atmosphere, I'm just criticizing places where they don't do that and just add more playtime. Stuff like poorly textured large rooms with nothing in them but lots of marble and probably a guard or two.
Melan on 29/1/2015 at 07:41
Quote Posted by Xorak
Sorry man, I disagree completely with this. To me, it's pure fascism to label these as 'disparaging remarks' and thus use this as an excuse to stop someone from speaking or having an opinion.
Whoa there Hitler, those are mighty large words to use.
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Melan/emot-godwin_zpsznez8vhq.gifAnyway, nobody will have complete consensus on what makes Thief levels good, because the originals are complex enough to have different meanings for different people. I think the bank level is oversized for its own sake, and the marble floors with the omnipresent lighting stretching out that experience beyond the limits of enjoyment. Yet it is one of the levels which crops up in positive reviews, and a lot of people consider it the second best mission of TMA after Life of the Party (although not even LotP is beyond criticism). A good expansion of the Thief games would not have to be about any one thing; rather, it would have to recreate the originals' complexity and variety.
Purgator on 29/1/2015 at 12:38
Why not just create something new, rather than trying to re-define the old game?
I've played Thief countless times, if I look at it now it's for nostalgic reasons.
I would have to admit I would be a little bored if I had play it through again, not because it's boring, just that I've played it a lot and know what to expect.
That's on me. That's how I feel about it.
I'm not trying to stop people having an opinion, as I said originally if you dislike something and explain why that's fine, as an expressed opinion.
Saying something "is" versus "this is how I see it" are two very different views.
"How I see it", is great! Lots of sensible debate ensues.
"It is", based on a dislike, not so great. People scratching heads and wondering who died and made you "Game Design Guru".
Quote Posted by Melan
I think the bank level is oversized for its own sake, and the marble floors with the omnipresent lighting stretching out that experience beyond the limits of enjoyment. Yet it is one of the levels which crops up in positive reviews, and a lot of people consider it the second best mission of TMA after Life of the Party (although not even LotP is beyond criticism). A good expansion of the Thief games would not have to be about any one thing; rather, it would have to recreate the originals' complexity and variety.
An fine example of an expressed opinion.
Quote Posted by Dev_Anj
Making a ludicrously huge, empty room with marble floors, providing the player few resources, and then placing some guards nearby doesn't make for many interesting gameplay scenarios; the player basically just has to move at a painfully slow rate throughout the level. This is not entertaining because it often doesn't involve doing interesting things, like watching patterns, manipulating security systems, hoodwinking groups of guards using several methods etc.
Not a good example.
All any of us look for here is honest, open, adult debate (I hope).
As for
ANYONE equating my comments to Fascism with world events the way they are,
you ought to be ashamed.
I do agree we are getting nowhere.
Dev_Anj on 29/1/2015 at 12:46
Isn't it obvious though that I'm saying what I think about using lots of marble floors? Do I have to add "In my opinion" for every sentence I write?
Also, I gave reasons in that post for me not liking lots of marble floors. You've yet to dispute the points I made there effectively.
Judging by how you feel about this idea though, I would say that Deus Ex: Revision is not for you. I would say that I would like to redo the old games so that they feel fresh again and play better for most people. I realize that this is a very risky goal, and not necessarily achievable for many reasons, but I just wanted to know what the people here feel.
