Purgator on 29/1/2015 at 13:48
No, but you could have added it in your opening statement and then went from there.
You also need to know that there's this thing called "Tone", how you set it is a vital part of communication.
Please don't think of this as anything other than healthy banter.
This is a thought provoking thread and it's greatly welcomed, it wasn't my intention to derail or detract from it.
If we're not talking, we don't care.
Mofleaker on 29/1/2015 at 14:21
This thread has hilariously and ironically demonstrated just why these types of projects never come to fruition.
Judith on 29/1/2015 at 14:33
Revision is a bit unfortunate or ambiguous name for such project. I mean, who are those people to make such 'corrections' to IonStorm's work or trying to expand their vision without at least some consulting and first of all, a 'blessing' from the devs? It doesn't sound like a good idea. Careful restoration project would be more respectful, or just a separate "inspired by" mod.
Regarding Thief 1/2, I think it would be more creative to think about OMs recreated with new technology, but also within different circumstances, e.g. '20 years later', abandoned/ruined/overgrown, partly rebuilt or torn down, changed to a pub or library, new owner, different time of day, etc.
Dev_Anj on 29/1/2015 at 15:11
Rest assured, these people don't want to think of themselves as better than Ion Storm. They are great fans of the original Deus Ex, they just want to put a fresh spin on it. I know that Deus Ex is a very highly regarded game, and their remakes will invariably invite some criticism, regradless of how good it is. But at the same time, is it a bad idea to try and make their reinterpretations of these levels? Trust me, I love Deus Ex and I love Thief: Gold and Thief 2, but that doesn't mean I ignore the issues I see while playing these games. In some ways, they are part of their charm, but I feel that reinterpretations of these by talented authors could be interesting.
Oh, and Warren Spector is actually interested in the mod. Here's his tweet: (
https://twitter.com/Warren_Spector/status/481826919835385857) https://twitter.com/Warren_Spector/status/481826919835385857
Briareos H on 29/1/2015 at 15:19
FFS, Purgator shitting up a perfectly fine thread because they are offended by the use of "lazy" without the words "in my opinion", along with voodoo misreading and casually dismissing the OP made this an unnecessarily hostile discussion. Way to be open-minded.
Anyway, I think SlyFoxx' argument is the one which holds the most value here: there is little to no incentive to remake entire levels using an iteration of the same engine, especially when these levels are so iconic and revered (bar a few exceptions). It'd be pretty cool to see them remade in TDM instead, but then nobody will want to do it for legal reasons.
If you really wanted to go along with such a project, I think the authors should start with a remake (I don't really dig "revision") of Thieves' Guild, as most people don't like its current form. Maybe even launch a contest with the goal of overhauling Thieves' Guild and getting different people's take on it.
Purgator on 29/1/2015 at 15:27
"Shitting up", in your opinion.
Have you learned nothing from my posts, dear boy.
Judith on 29/1/2015 at 15:42
Quote Posted by Dev_Anj
Rest assured, these people don't want to think of themselves as better than Ion Storm. They are great fans of the original Deus Ex, they just want to put a fresh spin on it. I know that Deus Ex is a very highly regarded game, and their remakes will invariably invite some criticism, regardless of how good it is. But at the same time, is it a bad idea to try and make their reinterpretations of these levels? Trust me, I love Deus Ex and I love Thief: Gold and Thief 2, but that doesn't mean I ignore the issues I see while playing these games. In some ways, they are part of their charm, but I feel that reinterpretations of these by talented authors could be interesting.
Oh, and Warren Spector is actually interested in the mod. Here's his tweet: (
https://twitter.com/Warren_Spector/status/481826919835385857)
Still, without insight from original devs it's hardly anything more than "This is how it should be done, IMO". It's more like treading on somebody else's work. Creative re-imagining or remix is something different, and I can see they're trying to do both. So yes, since they're blurring the line between correcting IonStorm's work and doing some 'inspired by' stuff, they will be criticized for that. Such attitude might have been ok in times of old Quake or Unreal mapping, where mappers took other people's work and tweaked them as they saw fit, but it feels wrong in this context.
Dev_Anj on 29/1/2015 at 15:51
So you're saying it should have been called a re imagining then, instead of an improvement?
nickie on 29/1/2015 at 17:09
Now that opinions on opinions have been sorted, what are we talking about? That link you posted, Dev-Anj, specifically states it's a re-imagining or are you talking about something else? [Edit. Never mind, I get it now.]
I rather like Judith's idea of "20 years later, abandoned/ruined/overgrown, partly rebuilt or torn down, changed to a pub or library, new owner, different time of day, etc."
Now if someone could fix the door handles in T1 and T2 - I'd be happy.
Judith on 29/1/2015 at 17:48
Quote Posted by Dev_Anj
So you're saying it should have been called a re imagining then, instead of an improvement?
If that's what they're up to, then yes. But I saw a line about improving original storyline, that's another pitfall. Why would you want to do that, since fan fiction (especially from hardcore fans) is rarely on par with originals? (I'm assuming they want to write their own piece or rewrite the original). And in general, guys from IS, LGS and Irrational are really educated when it comes to design. They helped creating a discipline and passed on the knowledge (e.g. numerous keynotes on GDCs). You can bet that most of their design decisions were very deliberate. 'Fixing' anything other than wrong texture alignment, lightmapping errors, clipping meshes and such might be seen as a lack of respect (e.g. the marble floor example).
Maybe it's just the question of naming things. Re-imagining is one step further, as with good remixes: you take something and make something else out of it, that's fine.
