Gambit on 13/3/2009 at 03:48
If the Baron rules the City why people call him the Baron instead of the King ?
Does that mean that the City is the Baron´s feud that belongs to a wider national territory controlled by a king (or queen) ?
Maybe the Baron is forced to protect the king´s borders at his request ?
Or maybe there is a king and his court but they are just like today´s british royal family. A bunch of nobles partying but with no political power. Then the Baron is the "Gordon Brown", the "prime minister" who has the real power.
Or maybe there is no king. It´s a noblecracy. All nobles vote for their fanciest noble to organise noble parties and make sure the servants are loyal and ugly poor people are kept out of their sight. Their noblecrat is called the Baron...
Ok, just some crazy ideas... What are your taffing theories ? :thumb:
jtr7 on 13/3/2009 at 04:17
There's a Queen over him, a ruling monarchy. There's an Archduke, a Duke, a Duchess, an Earl, a Countess, a Baroness, and a Baronet, and a Squire.
Baron is the lowest ruling rank, while a baronet is a little lower but above a knight. An earl is above a baron, a countess is at the same rank as an earl, a duke is a prince, an archduke is a sovereign prince.
The best guess by the fans has been that The City is a city-state, governed by the Baron (Baron Bresling in TDS), but as part of a larger empire of completely undefined breadth.
Renault on 13/3/2009 at 05:07
The simplest answer is that the hierarchy of power in the Thief world is just different than ours, even though it uses the same title names. I've always just considered The Baron to be the ultimate authority within The City, and even if he does report to a King somewhere else in the world, it's outside of the realm of The City and thus outside the world of Thief.
It is likely however that the Baron's position is one that is passed on within family ranks though, based on the comment about the current Baron's grandfather in TDP.
jtr7 on 13/3/2009 at 05:08
Agreed, yeah.
There's the City Council, and a Regent/Regency Council, likely acting (narrowly) in the absent Baron's stead.
There's that mysterious Governor Horridge overseas, as well, whomever he is, whatever he governs, no city is named, no territory, only a street address.
BARON STUFF from the game files:The old Baron's nephew, Constable Tule, was--well--a tool.
In T3, there is no mention of Blackbrook, or a Baron at war, but there is a quote from a writing by a Baron Bresling:
Quote:
"Choose your immortality wisely, whether it be the treasure you amass, or the family who succeed you. - Advice to a Patriarch, Baron Bresling"
Quote:
"...the Cyclopean Magistrate Statue in Tesero Hall. How large! How solemn and impressive! Hanging the Coethe Medallion around its neck was a brilliant touch. One cannot but help to think of the Baron himself."
Quote:
m01v02c.sch: "Lady Emily this...Lady Emily that...thinks she's the Baroness, I wager."
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1830766#post1830766)
One I missed previously for this list (dang it!).Lord Holanthrus is advisor to the Baron in T2.
Karras assures Truart that the Baron need never know about his scandalous actions.
This conversation was unused:Quote:
SV2C0601 - Remember back when you were saying that the Baron would never marry?
SV1C0602 - Yeah. I'm still saying it.
SV2C0603 - This Felicia, he's serious about.
SV1C0604 - And what do you know about the Baron's romances, anyway?
SV2C0605 - My sister! She works for a lady who does Felicia's dresses.
SV1C0606 - Oh! Like Felicia knows if the Baron's serious.
Quote:
hm2c0901: "Even the Baron doth finally act against evil...when prodded with enough vigor."
Hm1c0902: "Meanest thou the action on DeWall's thugs?"
hm2c0903: "Verily, some have told me it was his own brethren who, in sin, didst turn him in."
Hm1c0904: "Thieves betray their own. Now as always."
Quote:
hm2c0901: "Even the Baron doth finally act against evil...when prodded with enough vigor."
Hm1c0902: "Meanest thou the action on DeWall's thugs?"
hm2c0903: "Verily, some have told me it was his own brethren who, in sin, didst turn him in."
Hm1c0904: "Thieves betray their own. Now as always."
Quote:
hm3c1001: "Some do say the Baron means to raise the tariffs again. Even on greens and meat."
hm1c1002: "The wretched man serves only the merchants in his own greed."
hm3c1003: "His grandfather cared less for his pocketed gold and more for his soul's health...but no longer."
hm1c1004: "The Builder's truth it is, that men without belief do soften and fail, as rotten wood."
Quote:
M2TAX.str: "Lord Bafford,
I write to you to remind you of your duties to your Baron and your city. Surely you do not expect that the payment you sent on the first of the month are the entirety of your taxgelt - or do you think the Baron is unaware of your gambling houses? Let me remind you of the example made of Lord Brynveran, and assure you that the penalties for concealment of income are as harsh today as they were in Brynveran's time. The main difference, of course, is that today, the inspectors receive a bounty and are even more enthusiastic in their duties.
The Baron waits for the remainder of your taxgelt. I advise that you not leave him waiting too long.
Julian Friehalt
Commissioner of Taxes"
demagogue on 13/3/2009 at 06:49
I was under the impression the City was like the Italian city states before they were unified, back in the Machiavelli days... The City is like it's own self contained city-state, and Baron is a generic word for the ruler of the City like "Prince" was the (translated) generic word for ruler that Machiavelli used.
By the way, in an stupid off topic aside, a few days ago it suddenly occured to me that like dukes rule duchies and barons run baronys, counts must run counties and that's where that word comes from. Stupid me had never figured that out before ...
Solabusca on 13/3/2009 at 08:07
Quote Posted by jtr7
The best guess by the fans has been that The City is a city-state, governed by the Baron (Baron Bresling in TDS), but as part of a larger empire of completely undefined breadth.
Isn't that conjecture, jtr7? I mean, Baron Bresling is *A* Baron, but not necessarily *THE* Baron.
I'd go with City-state left over from a larger political body (perhaps kingdom, perhaps empire) that has made good - incredibly good.
.j.
[EDIT TO ADD] And let's not forget that Thieves' Guild has mention of kings, at the very least, implying that the City was once part of a larger political body.
ManicMan on 13/3/2009 at 08:18
Oh and you repeat two items as being both said and unused..
jtr7 on 13/3/2009 at 08:24
"Best guess" = favored conjecture :)
Thieves Guild, m15creed:"We chose our profession in defiance of the greed of the monarchy.
We will not live for the sake of taxes to fatten the noble's pockets. We
choose to live the only life available to those who would truly be free.
We are Thieves.
--Creed of the Downwinders"
Questionable TDS bit, g1_dru_yini2:"Iszat the queen? Thought the queen was here...."
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Oh and you repeat two items as being both said and unused..
Got it!
Jah on 13/3/2009 at 09:42
I've always assumed that even if there is a king or emperor or some other monarch who is technically above the Baron, he is a very distant figure who plays no active part in the City's everyday life. I see the Baron as a feudal lord who pays the king taxes and supplies him with troops (maybe that's how the Baron ended up fighting a war?), but has a more or less free reign within his barony. I would also assume that the City at least started out as an independent city state which may have later joined a kingdom (for protection, perhaps), rather than being a part of an established larger realm that was granted to the Baron by the king.
Renault on 13/3/2009 at 13:26
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Oh and you repeat two items as being both said and unused..
Just repeating this because I think you missed it jtr, but you have the same two convos under both "established" and "unused."
Back to the topic at hand, it is noteworthy that there are so many mentions of a Baron and none of a King - if one existing you think there'd be the occasional reference, somewhere.
Also, there's a convo in Ambush talking about The Baron returning with "battlefield right behind him" - does this indicate that he actually goes into battle with his troops? That would seem unlikely for the highest ranking official of The City.
