ManicMan on 13/3/2009 at 19:55
i must have gotten things a little mixed up.. though with comments like this lot:
Quote:
hm3c1001: "Some do say the Baron means to raise the tariffs again. Even on greens and meat."
hm1c1002: "The wretched man serves only the merchants in his own greed."
hm3c1003: "His grandfather cared less for his pocketed gold and more for his soul's health...but no longer."
hm1c1004: "The Builder's truth it is, that men without belief do soften and fail, as rotten wood."
It's clear that he loves money. It was probebly that which confused me as it remined of what Richard did.... gotta feel sorry for his brother because Richard sent word to increase taxs to get him more money, and John was the guy left in the country to have to do that.. so he was made the fall guy.
Meisterdieb on 13/3/2009 at 21:09
If there´s a Baron then there´s a king ?Not necessarily. As has been pointed out by others, it just may be that "Baron" is simply the title they use for their leader.
The presence of all these other titles ("archduke, earl, squire") we see in some readables doesn't tell us that much either.
A duke may be higher in some hierarchies than a baron, but this is just an arrangement favoured in our world. It doesn't really tell you about how much power the lord has. If you look at real history, there are many instances where you have tiny, "powerless" duchies and large(r) counties or baronies.
Or you had "lowly" lords who were powerful enough to tell kings how to rule.
If you look further, you'll find that the situation where you have all these titles in the same system (and being used in the way we do now) is relatively young (meaning very late middle ages, but even moreso later).
Before that it was quite different. Duke and earl used to only a temporary titel and were roughly the same; if you look at the German equivalent Herzog you'll see that those titles were purely military ones.
Counts started out as administrative officials, and a baron used to be simply a free man.
My point? While we know there are Dukes, and earls and barons in the thief world, we have no realy evidence on any of their power. The only exceptions is "The Baron", who remains nameless throughout the series (except maybe that snippet in TDS) but who apparently is the supreme ruler of the city.
Quote Posted by jtr7
"Best guess" = favored conjecture :)
Questionable TDS bit, g1_dru_yini2:"Iszat the queen? Thought the queen was here...."
Who is saying that?
Beleg Cúthalion on 13/3/2009 at 21:19
Quote Posted by jtr7
Not much, but his greed is established.
Just to be very exact:
Established is only people's assumptions concerning his greed or wealth. And poor(er) people are always envious. Even the TDS quote might be just a sarcastic comment. Greedy nobles and super-nobles might fit the Thief universe, but they're clichéd... and I'm allergic to clichés.
jtr7 on 13/3/2009 at 21:52
Your allergies are WELL-established.:p
But touché.:thumb:
No more copying and pasting from long posts elsewhere!
Meisterdieb: g1_dru_yini2, is a general drunken "Guard 1" saying, not a specific character.
Renault on 13/3/2009 at 22:36
jtr, you still have one convo listed under both "established" and "unused." Also, the convo about The Baron's grandfather caring less for gold, I thought that was used, in Undercover if I remember correctly.
Solabusca on 14/3/2009 at 02:40
Quote Posted by jtr7
My post above contains nearlyThe unofficial canon in the unused files suggest he remained at war because it was profitable. He seems to be back home in TDS, if Baron Bresling is the same Baron at all.
Again, I'm not sure why you suspect Bresling is - the Bresling quote seems to indicate a posthumous one, especially with the fact that it dwells upon the creation of a legacy.
.j.
jtr7 on 14/3/2009 at 04:44
The only canon name ever given to any Baron in-game. Why Bresling, then? Why not THE Baron, as it had been all along, but now, in an XBOX game with Bresling as the very first introduction to a new player of Thief, with only one more mention later? The Baron, of The City, on The River, then suddenly..."Baron Bresling" for the veteran players. THE name for the new players (who are paying attention or care for the story at all). They should throw their ideas in here. It struck you as posthumous, and my first experience with that quote was "Oh! He's back from the war?" After which I looked and found no evidence there even was a war, or a Blackbrook, and wondered at how insular the TDS City was from all that came before, happy that there were little mentions about the previous titles and what had happened not so long ago to the City.
I cannot explain this. There's a fairly clear idiom (hard to define well with words, but quite recognizable upon sight, like a person's face) with little variation, to the point that any variation stands out (Huh. Got yer nose pierced, I see). The games adhere tightly to manufactured conventions per "culture" so that when there is a deviation from the intentional stereotypes, it makes it pronounced.
Storywise, the grandfather (known only by those who've played TDP/Gold, generally) is a better candidate. The previously-accepted fanon possibility of a passing of the Baron title along bloodlines, is enforced by the "Great Families" concept with Advice to a Patriarch, about legacy, along with the grave importance to the Rutherfords of a Bloodline opal in just that one great family, and not just a reflection upon the Rutherfords' tragic legacy we, as we step into Garrett's boots, are part of. However, the book could also have been written after the Baron came back from the war and really looked at his City, and the effects of all the huge changes it underwent, and heard firsthand stories, and rumors, and beheld the Mechanist remnant, and read the reports from the Regency Council, looked at the economy, looked at the dwindled Wardens and Thieves' Guild, absorbed the impact of his own legacy, and dictated his thoughts.
The Baron at war could've died at Blackbrook, or been exiled to Cyric, and been succeeded. Bresling could've been the grandfather, the very first Baron, or the fifteenth. The Baron could've been a reformed pagan or Hammerite. "Baron Bresling" could be a pseudonym of a self-help book author, or a Baron from another city altogether. I can't find the words to explain how I see the information in the files is being dispensed and how it applies to the world of Thief. I've tried and deleted several times today. Over an hour for this post alone and still got crap. :sweat:
It's been my chosen inclination that there are more than one Baron across the trilogy (not including the Grandfather). In light of Bresling, I find the name "Baron Theedwell", hidden in the gamefiles for the TMA Alpha Demo, an interesting rejected attempt to give the Baron a name.
I believe it was intentionally implied to name THE Baron "Bresling", knowing the new demographic they were communicating to. I know I could be wrong, and we'll never know how far off the theory is, and don't kid myself that I know where the name came from, or why it was truly applied to a quote, or chosen for the loading quote. It could've been a scribble on a napkin at McDonald's, coming to Terri while salting her fries, originally intended as the first line of a book on Lord Ember's bed-stand. As a fan, little of why I settle on certain fanon is arbitrary, and if it isn't in the game-files or explained by devs without ego...we made it up ourselves.
It's impossible to discuss or debate canon without making stuff up to connect the dots. What seems crystal clear to one is dumbfounding to another, eh? Words are so often useless.:laff:
Beleg Cúthalion on 14/3/2009 at 08:12
Baron Theedwell? Baron Playerstart Theedwell? :p
I'll check the guard1 if I find the time. Usually there's only one kind of drunken guards in TDS.
jtr7 on 14/3/2009 at 09:00
Maybe The Baron's "real" name is Napoléon?
ManicMan on 14/3/2009 at 10:21
Since the Baron is refered to as 'THE Baron' it would seam he is the only one in the city. You don't refer to 'The King' if you have half a dozen of them. For example, Being english, i refer to our Queen as 'The Queen', where as if i refered to a queen of another country, it would refer to her as 'Queen' whatever (depening on the name of course). This appear to be the same for most places. On the hold, americans say 'The President', they don't say 'President' Whatever do they? as a rule, you refer to the office for your own one.
Now, a Reference to a Baron by name would most likey refer to another one or a past one. But then, this is just my guess.. anyone agree?
