Meisterdieb on 14/3/2009 at 20:17
@jtr7: am I understanding you correctly that your post is your interpretation or your favourite piece of fanon?
re: Baron Theedwell
How canon is something not actually appearing in the game itself, just in the files? Even moreso if it just appears in the demo?
re: Baron Bresling
I do think that this is the actual Baron - THE Baron.
My reasoning goes something like this. First of, most if not all of the quotes are directly from the city or immediate surroundings. That's true for at least all non-pagan sources, with the pagan quotes/ manuscripts one cannot really tell where they are from but since everything in the games seems centered on THE City it's probbaly not too far-fetched to assume those, too, are from there.
Secondly, if one posts a quote, one would always write the full name of the source since otherwise it could become confusing.
So, noone would attribute the (Baron Bresling) quote just to "the Baron" except in oral tradition and only if the context is clear (i.e. the attributed Baron is still alive). So whenever you would use the quote you would write the name as well to make sure it's clear which baron you're talking about.
(Example: try telling any obscure quote form a previous president and only attribute it to "the president". If someone doesn't know that particular quote he's very likely to assume that you're talking about the current one (and generally he would be correct in assuming so))
The question wheteher it's the present Baron or his father or grandfather or great...grandfather may be interesting , but rather fruitless.
Since we know so little, the safest assumption would be that Bresling is our baron. Given the facts we have, it's actually the only assumption we can reasonably make.
ManicMan on 14/3/2009 at 21:53
Of course, there is a small problem... to me, it sounds more like a family name.. if the baron title and rule passes down, it seams very unlikey to refer to there last name like that.
and history is full of quotes marked as just 'the leader' or such like, which is why they are very often dated more then named...
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 04:22
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Of course, there is a small problem... to me, it sounds more like a family name.. if the baron title and rule passes down, it seams very unlikey to refer to there last name like that.
I agree with you that Bresling does sound -to us- more like a family name. But OTOH Gorman doesn't sound like a first name to me either (Is that an actual name being used in the real world??)
Quote Posted by ManicMan
and history is full of quotes marked as just 'the leader' or such like, which is why they are very often dated more then named...
Ok, I can't remember ever seeing someone being quoted without giving the name (when it wasn't very clear without the name who was meant).
Giving a date, is done quite often as well, but even then it is general practice to include the name.
If the person quoted has a name or title that is inherited or in frequent use, distinction will be made by adding something like " 5th Earl of Townburg", or "Prince Walter III".
Whether Baron Bresling is THE BAron or not, Bresling is the only connection between the Baron and a name.
ManicMan on 15/3/2009 at 11:18
Gorman is a real name ^_^ It's an old Irish first name which this days is more a surname (alot of old first names became surnames). means Blue-eyed one or something like that... a good name for the leader of the 'Blue coats' huh?
as for the name thing, the reason its more common to see versions with the names is because most of the writen stuff without names isnt kept as it is demean 'worthless to history' on the whole because of the problems of not knowing how said it.. but then, recorded names in history are wrong... there are still guys that think Shakespear wrote all the plays and poems with his name on them... though there is enought doubt to confuse a court of law ^_^
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 14:23
Quote Posted by ManicMan
Gorman is a real name ^_^ It's an old Irish first name which this days is more a surname (alot of old first names became surnames). means Blue-eyed one or something like that... a good name for the leader of the 'Blue coats' huh?
Heh, I didn't know that. And it sure seems they put a lot more thought in naming him than I previously thought.
But you also mention that some surnames used to be first names...maybe Bresling is still a first name in the city...
Quote Posted by ManicMan
as for the name thing, the reason its more common to see versions with the names is because most of the writen stuff without names isnt kept as it is demean 'worthless to history'
Don't want to sound to harsh, but undated or unsourced stuff is pretty much "worthless" to history (or science in general); at the least it is a pain in the a** to make it useful by finding who said/wrote/ did it and finding its context.
Quote Posted by ManicMan
on the whole because of the problems of not knowing how said it.. but then, recorded names in history are wrong... there are still guys that think Shakespear wrote all the plays and poems with his name on them... though there is enought doubt to confuse a court of law ^_^
Well, let's just say there are 2 or 3 differing opinions on Shakespeare but neither has any definite or deciding proof. You see a similar discussion about Homer and his epics.
Addendum (to original topic and my previous post):
If we assume that the Baron isn't the highest title in the city/ city-state/ whatever the nation is called, it still doesn't mean that there would be a king. Maybe the ruler is "just" a prince or duke, or they have an aristocracy where all the Lords gather and elect a ""Regent" or "Lord Protector" or something similar.
ManicMan on 15/3/2009 at 17:42
yeah ^_^ though the there is some on the verge of being proof on the shakespear point, that is for another topic, probebly on another board ^_^
I see your point about the name though... There are very few surnames in the thief universe until Thief 2 if i remember right (were the Rothchilds the first? or did i miss remembering a few notes)
I think we can be safe to knowning that the Baron rules the city and probebly doesn't rule much more, and that there is a higher rank that rules a larger area.. though even in medieval times, Citys didn't really war with each other like that... (well.. they did a bit but i said 'Like that')
Gambit on 17/3/2009 at 15:24
Maybe it's not a City vs City thing but a City vs Invading empire.
Just like the city of Sparta had an army that tried to stop the huge persian army (they did a good score at the battle of Thermopilas - aka 300 but then the persians attacked again and won AFAIK).
Or maybe we should see it like the Japanese Daimio's. The Baron is the daimio, his soldiers are his loyal samurais, and they must defend thenselves against other daimios.
Hmm.
Samurais=Hammerites?
They share a rigid code of honor, an almost religious love for their weapon (katana is their soul / hammer is the simbol of their god), they have more rights than the peasants, etc.
Or maybe it's like City=Central America or South America colonies
For example the City=Brazil and the king=Portugal.
The king rules over the City but he is distant and his appointed Baron has more direct power over it. Although that doesn't mean the Baron can do whatever he wants.
And Blackroock can also be a city made by invading pirates from other countries (like when the french invaded Rio de Janeiro or when the dutch invaded the north of Brazil with Mauricio de Nassau). That could explain a lot of pirate themes near the city (the pirate island, the smuggling at the docks, etc)
ManicMan on 17/3/2009 at 16:23
Quote Posted by Gambit
Just like the city of Sparta had an army that tried to stop the huge persian army (they did a good score at the battle of Thermopilas - aka 300 but then the persians attacked again and won AFAIK).
I know about the battle but was discredit yourself soo much by saying the name of a completey Anti-historic Graphic Novel by a guy that can't write his way out of a paper bag unless it was to shot, slab and blow the bag up with alot of blood around the place... (I have hated Frank Miller for longer then most people have heard of him...)
Anyway..
Quote:
Samurais=Hammerites?
They share a rigid code of honor, an almost religious love for their weapon (katana is their soul / hammer is the simbol of their god), they have more rights than the peasants, etc.
not really... most didn't have that much of a thing for the weapon as such (oh, and mostly, they use two piece sets, not just a Katana).. Hammers have a love for there god, most Samurai didn't like there lords. It was not there place to like their lord. And a Hammerite will use there hammer to smash anything unworthy.. a True Samurai (not a Ronin or dishonored Samurai) wouldn't soil his swords or other weapons (they didn't all use Swords) like that unless had to.
True, there are some things the same, but it's the same as a Hammerite and a Priest of any church, or a Hammerite and Odie (from Garfield) (yes, why? Both are dumb, both can't see something right infront of them, both like carrying a large object around, both follow someone that probebly should be followed around all the time)... Any chance, and i hope you don't take this the wrong way, but do you get your idea of a Samurai for American movies?
jtr7 on 17/3/2009 at 20:18
Meisterdieb: That post of mine is mostly just made up crap to make the points that it's easy to build up a story from scraps and assumption and impression, and I'm also asking, why is the only name of a Baron in the TRILOGY, ever, placed prominently on a loading quote? I don't believe that's a coincidence and ISA were introducing that world to a console-only crowd, as well as a new generation unfamiliar with the previous titles.
I didn't say Theedwell was canon, nor was that my intended implication, but I mentioned it because I'm curious to know if Emil (or whomever!) just made it up for himself, or if it was a name he heard from other devs. Names have been given but withheld to whatever extent. We don't know, so it's not canon.
Bresling is special. Why him? Or is this another instance where it's felt the devs weren't paying attention...again?:tsktsk:
If it's in-game, it, in itself, is canon, and everything else is us making stuff up. All of us.:laff:
ManicMan on 17/3/2009 at 20:37
didn't i hear something about the team not being happy about having to down the game for the tin-pot console? (Don't mind that comment.. I'm a MegaDrive guy at heart.. Thief for the MegaDrive (or more, the 32X) would have been Great...hehe, on D&D for MegaDrive, i called the thief 'Garrett')
