Ostriig on 6/9/2009 at 23:03

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Let me make sure we're on the same page - I agree with you that IW was a big let down when considering the shoes it had to fill. In fact, IW was nothing short of the biggest disappointment in my gaming career. But after having spent about 2-3 months sulking, I got back to it and approached it as a stand-alone, and I found it to be a decent experience and a notch more memorable than other things I played that year. That doesn't mean that I'm not aware of its many flaws, even taken aside from its predecessor, and I'm well aware of many such shortcomings in TDS too, even though I felt it was an overall better game than IW. So, yes, I do believe the rest of you when you say TDS was worse than, say, TMA.

But what I'm going for here is, since this poll came somewhat from (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1903462#post1903462) this post, I'd rather have a Thief 4 be something like TDS 2 than not at all.


P.S. While I'm at it, if you haven't, you ought to give Stalker a try. You might just like it. A lot.

Chade on 6/9/2009 at 23:41

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All sorts of things. The city sections and climbing gloves have a lot of potential for exploration and 3d movement. The simpler and less favourable combat model. A whole host of decisions which encourage players to flee encounters and try to sneak back through (climbing gloves, tired guards, less powerfull flashbombs, etc).

It's worth noting that T1 and T2 are fairly polished games, and I don't feel that you can significantly improve on either game if you decide to copy the exact same mechanics. On the other hand, no one would say this about T3. There is huge room for improvement there.

I don't count things like dynamic shadows, physics, etc, where the technological goal posts have moved regardless of what "attitude" the game is designed with.

Chade on 7/9/2009 at 00:50

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No. Not for me.

I disagree with you about climbing gloves (while the implementation was crap, I thought the neutered horizontal wall movement still managed to be worthwhile, and I used them more then rope arrows), flashbombs (big improvement IMO), combat model (I would prefer thief to focus on stealth and not model combat in any great detail). Although you didn't mention it, I disagree with most of TTLG about guards getting tired, and many other issues I'm sure we forgot to mention ...

And call me crazy, but a well implemented city hub with well implemented T3 tools would feel like a well implemented T3! Wierd, huh? Of course, if you associate T3 with "poorly implemented stuff" or "cramped levels" then any improvement will feel more like T1/2, and you will not welcome T3's spiritual sequel, practically by definition.

The poll question confuses two separate issues: 1) what associations spring to mind when you hear "T3 vs T1/2", and 2) what are your hopes for T4. People could theoretically give separate answers while actually agreeing on either one of these issues.

Jarvis on 7/9/2009 at 06:45

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The "open city hub" is a parlor trick, designed to trick us into believing something better is coming, that the world of Thief will be expanded. I was really excited before TDS came out, because I had so much fun with stages like Life of the Party. I thought an open city meant that.

Now we all know TDS made a mockery of "open city". That was a joke.

But what if it hadn't been? What if had been a large area like life of the party? Well... it's still be a large area that I'd have to visit over and over again. Think critically about an "open city hub". It's a way for developers to reuse an area they made over and over.

Thief would not work with a huge city like GTA. I really enjoyed GTA4, but I got really tired of driving around the huge city over and over again. I just wanted to hurry up and get to the next mission so I could see more story or maybe explore a new warehouse *with purpose*.

It's made me realize a number of things:

1: Video game exploration is always better with purpose behind it. Thief provides a great amount of purpose through loot and readables and objectives.

2: Areas need to be designed with detail. The larger the area, the more time and money it takes to add in the detail necessary to make it really interesting. Thief demands a ton of detail in relatively small area.

3: Exploration requires new areas to attract curiosity. When ever you have to cross back over an already explored area, it's always done quickly to get back to looking at new areas.

Really, the old mission to mission format of TDP and TMA is the most ideal form of presenting stealth/exploration gameplay. On every stage (except casing/masks) you can expect fresh areas to explore. They will be detailed and designed for stealth/exploration in mind, and there will be some purpose behind your movements.

So is it an open city hub we want? Or rather a string of really well designed stages that we don't have to repeat over and over again?

Bakerman on 7/9/2009 at 11:06

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I don't agree. If we still buy the game and say 'we bought it even though it sucked', what does that tell developers? That we buy crap games. So where's the motivation to make a game with higher quality? The only way to teach developers is with our money - by witholding it when we don't like what they give us.

To weight in on the discussion, I'd say that I would be unhappy. I don't think TDS is as deserving of a spiritual successor as TDP/TMA still are. To quantify that - I associate T3 with, like many others have said, general weakness, and lack of respect for the player. Also, it felt like a 'modern' game, which TDP and TMA didn't (since I only played them in ~2007). TDS felt new and slick and like a marketing executive. I'd rather trust the hoary old barfly than the suit-wearing dick.

I just realised that didn't quantify it at all :P. Here's where I believe a spiritual successor to TDS would differ from a successor to TDP/TMA:
-Lack of open spaces and large levels, and a lack of free(er) movement
-One-button gameplay and intrusive CONSOLE HUD
-Gimmicks like 'open world!!'

Aside from those things, I don't actually dislike the gameplay of TDS that much. If the gameplay were the same as TDS, I wouldn't complain too much (but leaning in TDS sucked - bring back the original leaning!). But I can't tolerate acceptable gameplay if it comes in a package that smells of shrink-wrap and tinsel.