nickie on 22/3/2014 at 10:09
OK Woodsie - you're now back as downwinder. And if anyone else has problems logging in with their username, please use the Contact Us Form at the bottom of the page rather than use a new name.
Platinumoxicity on 22/3/2014 at 10:25
Quote Posted by ghg1976
PS - At the end of deadly shadows, Garrett catches a young girl pick pocketing him. He suddenly has a female apprentice in Thief 4....it's not hard to connect the dots.
You do realize who you're talking about? When has there ever been any indications that Garrett would want to do that? Really. Just explain why Garrett would take an apprentice, without completely changing the character to suit that continuation. It becomes pretty hard to connect those dots when you actually stop ignoring everything that contradicts it. Why would a self-centered unsentimental apathetic egomaniac want to waste time on an apprentice? The only thing I could sort of see is some ridiculously long-term preparation for some tangible benefit, but even that clashes with his ego because it's an extra human element and then he couldn't credit the accomplishment entirely on himself. Remember, he doesn't do things like avoid murder out of morality, but because it's a challenge and he's the self-titled best of the best.
Just describe the mental gymnastics required to turn Garrett into Obi Wan Kenobi.
Starker on 22/3/2014 at 12:37
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
Why would a self-centered unsentimental apathetic egomaniac want to waste time on an apprentice? The only thing I could sort of see is some ridiculously long-term preparation for some tangible benefit, but even that clashes with his ego because it's an extra human element and then he couldn't credit the accomplishment entirely on himself. Remember, he doesn't do things like avoid murder out of morality, but because it's a challenge and he's the self-titled best of the best.
This only applies to Garrett in the first two games, though. During Deadly Shadows Garrett became the One True Keeper™. As the One True Keeper™ he's no longer looking out only from himself and can hardly get back to robbing banks for personal gain.
Not to mention that the ending of DS mirrored the way Garrett himself got apprenticed.
Platinumoxicity on 22/3/2014 at 16:12
When did Garrett express any enthusiasm in helping others? Wasn't he antagonizing everyone all the way, and the later half was just him trying to eliminate a threat that was trying to kill him? The only difference between TDS and the previous games is that Garrett actually believes that there is some truth to the prophecies, when previously he had just been avoiding the pesky keepers as much as he could. There wasn't some great gradual human development in his character during the trilogy, changing him to someone who cares so deeply about human beings that he would abandon his livelihood and lifestyle to help a random poor person on the street get a new life. That isn't Garrett you're talking about. More like NuGarrett. The character who is so flat and shallow that he doesn't need explanation. The guy who doesn't steal because he's paying his rent and he's good at his job. "It's who I am."
And any sort of cyclical bullshit based on the ending referencing the beginning, that is the foundation of people insisting on the apprentice adoption continuation, is something way below what the people from LGS could come up with, and is just projection of common fiction tropes by the least imaginative people. Just like the almost undeniable notion of the Trickster being somehow immortal despite having been said to be dead, twice, with no ambiguity. It's just people injecting their most familiar plot devices from the culture they have been living in, into speculation in endings that are left open.
Starker on 22/3/2014 at 19:48
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
When did Garrett express any enthusiasm in helping others? Wasn't he antagonizing everyone all the way, and the later half was just him trying to eliminate a threat that was trying to kill him? The only difference between TDS and the previous games is that Garrett actually believes that there is some truth to the prophecies, when previously he had just been avoiding the pesky keepers as much as he could. There wasn't some great gradual human development in his character during the trilogy, changing him to someone who cares so deeply about human beings that he would abandon his livelihood and lifestyle to help a random poor person on the street get a new life.
Nobody has said he has to be enthusiastic about it. He could be training her purely out of self-interest. Garrett may be cynical, but he doesn't seem like someone who avoids company at all costs. I don't think he mopes alone in a corner somewhere when he's not out stealing things. Also, it's not a random poor person, it's someone who can "see a keeper who does not wish to be seen", meaning that she has actual talent.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
More like NuGarrett. The character who is so flat and shallow that he doesn't need explanation. The guy who doesn't steal because he's paying his rent and he's good at his job. "It's who I am."
Actually, the Garrett in DS is closer to the rebooted Garrett than the original Garrett was. He's not just about the money any more, he's the "world's greatest thief", he has a similar fashion sense, he's given a scar and a glowing green eye to make him edgier, etc.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
And any sort of cyclical bullshit based on the ending referencing the beginning, that is the foundation of people insisting on the apprentice adoption continuation, is something way below what the people from LGS could come up with, and is just projection of common fiction tropes by the least imaginative people.
Like it or not, that's what Deadly Shadows implies. Why else mirror the scene up to the exact phrase used?
Doing a game that's about Garrett's apprentice would be far more creative than what the reboot did. A game with a new protagonist could mean new game mechanics, new equipment and new storylines without compromising Garrett's character. You could have a protagonist that's very similar to Garrett, keeping the cynical remarks and the abrasive personality, yet do something fresh with her. You don't see many female anti-heroes in games and this could be something far more interesting than making Garrett wear eyeshadow.
Platinumoxicity on 23/3/2014 at 10:40
Quote Posted by Starker
Like it or not, that's what Deadly Shadows implies. Why else mirror the scene up to the exact phrase used?
It's what
you imply.
Why mirror the scene? Why does the Cradle follow the exact same formula as Return to the Cathedral? A reference to the previous games. That's all it needs to be. And "mirror" isn't even accurate because there are clear differences. Garrett is not Artemus. Not in the way he's a keeper, and not in character. He isn't invisible on a street. He doesn't like people. He isn't obligated to do anything. The prophecy isn't mandating him to acquire a recruit. He doesn't have "a need for those who are gifted." That part was left out of the ending, most likely on purpose, just to reflect how the situation is different. Everything that actually would imply the kind of contination that emerged from the intro of TDP is absent from the ending of TDS. You are forcefully filling the gaps in your mind to support the continuation that you have derived from projection and lack of imagination. Garrett has a choice. He decides what happens. He shapes the events. That's the one thing that always made him different. When all the other keepers did nothing, he did something. When a regular keeper adopts an apprentice, he does not.
And how does Garrett make the elemental qualities of the physical world disappear by recruiting a street urchin? You were saying that you wanted to connect the storylines, weren't you? I hope you aren't just picking and choosing to make things fit. Oh, right. You are.
Starker on 23/3/2014 at 14:15
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
It's what you imply.
Nope, it's what Terri Brosius implies.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
Garrett has a choice.
Exactly. And he would choose to pass on his skills to a new generation. He makes his own decisions now. He is not trying to be some kind of antikeeper any more.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
And how does Garrett make the elemental qualities of the physical world disappear by recruiting a street urchin?
What do the elemental qualities have to do with anything? Why would they dissappear? They would stay right where they are and the apprentice would make use of them.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
You were saying that you wanted to connect the storylines, weren't you?
What are you even talking about? What storylines? Between Deadly Shadows and a hypothetical Thief 4? Of course they would have to be connected. It wouldn't be a proper sequel otherwise.
Anyway, getting back to the topic, here's what I answered the last time when a continuation of the story was discussed on the forums: (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141925&page=2&p=2202137&viewfull=1#post2202137)
Platinumoxicity on 24/3/2014 at 05:47
Quote Posted by Starker
What do the elemental qualities have to do with anything? Why would they dissappear? They would stay right where they are and the apprentice would make use of them.
You are trying to tie the NuThief universe to the original one, and thus you need to explain the fundamental changes. Like the fact that the world is made out of different stuff.
Quote Posted by Starker
Exactly. And he would choose to pass on his skills to a new generation. He makes his own decisions now. He is not trying to be some kind of antikeeper any more.
Remind me again why Garrett would ever care about something like that? He's absolutely against sentimentality. Why would he care about the livelihood of some future somebody to the point of compromising his own job and life? Garrett always wanted to get rich or die trying. He doesn't give a taff about what happens after he's gone. Plus that idea is incredibly cheesy, so it would introduce some inconsistency.
Starker on 24/3/2014 at 06:15
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
You are trying to tie the NuThief universe to the original one, and thus you need to explain the fundamental changes. Like the fact that the world is made out of different stuff.
No I'm not. As far as I'm concerned, the reboot universe is garbage. I wouldn't have it anywhere near Thief 4.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
Remind me again why Garrett would ever care about something like that?
And why would it be impossible? He could have an apprentice for practical reasons, not sentimental ones. If he was, say, building a new keeper organisation, he'd need trustworthy and/or capable people to delegate tasks to.
ClashWho on 24/3/2014 at 15:08
Quote Posted by downwinder
i always wondered where the story line would have gone after thief 3,as i did like the story alot and it matched well with first 2 games
i figured if i had to guess i would say the keepers are kinda in the same position the hammers were when mechs were on top,so it then would kinda put a lot of the faction on a level playing field,hammers fractured,keepers lost all writings,mechs lost there leader and have no direction or anyone to lead,the pagans lost there woodsie lord and viktoria and are now left with nothing but the land they live on.
so i am kinda stump on what would have happened?
what would you say the next game story would/should have gone?
This is actually why I wasn't too bothered by NuThief apparently being set many years after the original trilogy. The original trilogy really feels like a complete story, especially the way Garrett's arc seems to come full circle at the very end. It would have been kind of disappointing to see Garrett just running around thieving after becoming the One True Keeper.
