If Thief IV had to be in the future, could a 1930s-like setting work ?

Petike the Taffer on 28/11/2008 at 22:31

Now don't get me wrong. I wholeheartedly support sticking with the quasi-medieval setting, if a Thief IV was ever to be completed some day.

But what do you think, could a 1930s-analogue setting work ?

Here's my little vision :
The City, the factions, the magic and all fantasy beings would still exist like in the previous installments. Everything else would be partly modernized. Art-deco skyscrapers coexisting with centuries old Hammer cathedrals, the noble families and aristocrats becoming wealthy industrialists, the Baron would be the Mayor, the Pagans still a flourishing underground cult, occupying the sewers and abandoned subway tunnels. The City Watch becomes The City Police Department (TCPD), armed with batons and revolvers/rifles instead of swords/maces or bows/crossbows. Much of the same goes for the Downwinders and other thief guilds, who now serve the role of the local ganster mobs, smugglers, bank robbers, etc. Vintage cars puff on the streets, zeppelins and early airplanes fly across the sky. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_radio) Radio and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_television) primitive TV. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine#Early_history_timeline) Diesel engines replacing steam. Everything invented by the Hammers, of course... The City would be experiencing an equivalent of the Great depression, a bad omen of a potential Fourth Dark Age. :) Besides the Hammerites and Pagans, the Keepers still exist, still use glyphs and work as a sort of altruistic secret service, protecting the balance.

All characters from the previous three games would have a perfectly identical twin here, a sort of future doppelganger.
Garrett's personality and language would be a little updated in a style reminescent of Raymond Chandler's Phil Marlowe stories, and film-noir characters, like the ones played by Bogart in The Maltese Falcon or Casablanca. :thumb:
Viktoria as a femme fatale of the city's crime scene, Constantine as an occultist nutjob, art collector and crime boss, Karrass as a mad scientist stereotype, Gammall / The Hag as a Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde or J. Crane / Scarecrow type of villain. Secondary characters return too, including Artemus, Orland, Caduca, Mosley and the rest of the bunch...

Garrett can now either concetrate on thieving, or simple detective work (depending on the nature of the mission).
For detective work, he wears a typical trenchcoat and hat.
For thieving, he uses a more modern version of his original suits, sort of like a cat burglar would wear.

As for his weapons and gadgets :

Blackjack, lockpicks, light gem, flashbombs, gas bombs/grenades, oil flasks, etc. - no real change here

"Tafferang" - a boomerang version of the blackjack. Deals no damage, and is used for knocking out people from greater distances. If you miss, you'll have to retrieve it by yourself (much like a scouting orb from TMA). A secondary use would be luring people to you (hidden behind the corner), so you could BJ them by surprise. The shape of Garrett's thieving boomerang would actually be a more modern, cross-like design, not the typical V shape.

Close combat weapon - either a dagger or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throwing_knives#The_throwing_knife) small throwing knives (the sword wouldn't fit the setting anymore).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Recurve_crossbow_with_bolts.jpg) Modern composite crossbow or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rifle) air-powered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun) flechette gun - shoots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarrel) bolts or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette) flechettes with the usual broadhead/elemental/noisemaker tips, as well as a bigger projectile equipped with a grapling hook and rope reel. ;) :cool:

Small flashlight - in addition to the flares from TMA.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minox) Pocket camera - for taking snapshots in addition to a TDP and TMA-style notebook.

Suction cups - for climbing on skysrapers or large glass surfaces, in addition to the climbing gloves, which are reserved for more standard surfaces.

Glass cutter - duh...

Scouting orb - these fellows deserve a comeback. :)

Health potion - the only one. No invisibility, speed, or slow-fall juice, please ! :rolleyes: Keep it realistic.

Tactical lock/door wedge - you can only carry a few of these aces up your sleeve, but they are extremely useful. Deploy them on any door, and no one will be able to open or unlock it, except you. :thumb:

Glue flask - in addition to the oil flask, throw some of these on the floor and watch the cops/guards get caught in this sticky muck ! :cool:

What do you think ? It doesn't change the overall formula too much, but seems as a fun continuation of the original trilogy. Feel free to criticise the idea.

qolelis on 29/11/2008 at 03:05

I wouldn't mind this at all, even though "Thief: Modern" seems to be a real taboo around here. I would suggest mixing&matching devices from older times with more modern devices and try to meld them together, like in Terry Gilliams's movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/) Brazil.

Another movie that comes to mind is (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101889/) The Fisher King, also made by Mister Gilliam, as it so happens. Even though it takes place in modern times, it, partly, feels like it might as well be the olden times. It's all about atmosphere. Robin Williams character seems to be stuck in some long gone era.

One might want to put (fast-shooting) guns/revolvers to a minimum or make them seem taken from an older era. The idea is to not turn Thief into a shooter. With that said, the adding of guns could give the player an even stronger incentive to avoid the ones who are carrying them (and thus encouraging the player to sneak instead). Maybe put guns under strict licensing and hard to come by. Anyone caught without a license would be severly punished. The player would be very unlikely to carry one, because of this, but also because guns would make a lot of noise and attract a lot of unwanted attention. So, if adding guns, then give the player strong incentives not to use them, but at the same time giving the player a choice.

Edit:
Please please please, don't call it a "tafferang" :eww:

jtr7 on 29/11/2008 at 03:38

It sure is fun thinking up stuff, ain't it?:D

As I've said before, there's a lot of room to expand the setting. Another way to state what has been said, is that Thief doesn't need to borrow more from more games, and it doesn't need to try to cater to a younger audience, or a mass audience. Modern isn't bad until it becomes GTA. As we keep saying, we don't want "Thug", we want Thief. It has enough material already to expand on without bringing new equipment or weapons. Too many specialised tools and the game veers from Master Thief to Master Cheat. The main character doesn't need to fall into the sequel traps of powering-up or acquiring new abilities. Improving old skills and acquiring better versions of trusty equipment is more satisfying.

The Thirties were introduced in TDS with the thugs, especially Jimmy the Knife and the way "Thug2" speaks, what with all those anachronistic "knuckle sandwiches".:p

This thread would fit right in with the first 22 pages of the big (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120596) Thief 4 thread.

I don't have a problem with guns, but with how they would be implemented and force changes in the gameplay, removing at least one major part of the Thief experience.

Black powder explosives and steam cannons were both introduced, as_well as crossbow pistols, so guns with bullets aren't far behind. Make them flintlock guns, and have the few AI that use them delay between firing them, and say things like "going off half-cocked" and "just a flash in the pan".

As soon as the player is required to engage in shooting as part of the intended gameplay, the game has lost the heart of Thief.
If the player must have skills as a twitch-shooter, the game has lost the heart.
As soon as I can expect to hear my speakers blasting with typical FPS cacophony because the game is designed to have lots of explosions, and often...it's lost me.
If I am required to engage in combat, rather than as a consequence of not being stealthy enough, we'll know "it's not Thief no more!"

Petike the Taffer on 29/11/2008 at 08:47

Quote Posted by qolelis

Please please please, don't call it a "tafferang" :eww:

All right, don't worry, I just wanted to give it a funny name... :ebil: ;) I won't use it anymore. There are still enough alternatives for naming that thing anyway.

As for guns :

Listen guys, that's the whole point. You would really need to use stealth in this Thief. If you read closely, Garrett would NOT, I repeat NOT be equipped with any real handgun. The (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun) flechette gun simply does not count, because :
1. It's supposed to be an airrifle, so it can fire fast, but one shot at a time (it isn't semi-automatic or anything).
2. It does little damage compared to a real pistol, because it shoots only dart-like arrows ((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette) flechettes) instead of bullets.
3. I envisioned it as a passive weapon, the broadhead darts are there only for a "just in case" scenario. Using these would mean, that you're on a good way to load from your last save, because you can't play "gun-ho FPS" style...
Anyway, the FG could still be substituted for a modern crossbow design and nothing much would change. Because this Thief would follow the tradition of the first three, and not turn into a shooter. Guards armed with guns would provide an even greater challenge. You would really have to avoid them, avoid open combat (because your airrifle/crossbow is simply weaker than their arnaments). However, there would be some mercy here : Guards and cops would need to reload a lot (and do it slowly and patiently), or they would regularly miss, just to make it balanced. A funny idea would be the "drunk guard advantage" - imagine a "Benny the cop" firing at you, and missing half the time... :laff: :thumb: All of this would give you a chance to escape or deploy a stun-gadget (a flashbomb, etc.) and then leave.

Don't worry, I really would hate it, if this modernised Thief would go downhill from "great atmospheric stealth game" to "mediocre first person shooter". :nono: :(

EDIT : Besides, Garrett using a gun does not make much sense. Guns are loud - even when they use sound surpressors. Shooting weapons without explosion-based projectile propulsion are therefore ideal for keeping all your actions relatively quiet.

Quote Posted by qolelis

Quote Posted by jtr7

The main character doesn't need to fall into the sequel traps of powering-up or acquiring new abilities. Improving old skills and acquiring better versions of trusty equipment is more satisfying.

That's what I was aiming for. If you read my list of equipment again, you'll notice, that I concentrated on tactical gadgets instead of weapons. Few of the proposed new gizmos would be used regularly. The camera, flashlight and flares, flasks, suction cups, glass cutter and climbing gloves are for occasional use. You don't have to rely on these at all. Or any other gear - you could still ghost, just like Garrett is supposed to in the first place.

And this time, no "glyph-enhanced" wizard Garrett or magic potions for everything...

You have my word. :angel:

jtr7 on 29/11/2008 at 08:55

Cool. It's okay, even if we know the heart of Thief, I feel we must make it clear to anyone else who doesn't. In the meantime, keep having fun with it.:thumb:

Tintin on 29/11/2008 at 09:11

Mate, that would be amazing! I would be all for it as long as stealth was still the focus of the game.

Herr_Garrett on 29/11/2008 at 09:37

No, not cars, please. I'd rather have an Arcanum-like setting, then.

jtr7 on 29/11/2008 at 09:42

Man, if they could just get horses and buggies in there...:D

Petike the Taffer on 29/11/2008 at 09:46

Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett

No, not cars, please. I'd rather have an Arcanum-like setting, then.

Bah, cars won't change a thing. They would be added just for the "new era" flavour. It would not be like in Mafia or GTA, where you can steal cars. Garrett would still rely on his own feet to get around... and to keep physically fit as a master thief... :cheeky:

jtr7 on 29/11/2008 at 10:23

So... Which City faction shall be introduced as a corrupt power that needs dismantling/destroying? If the City Watch hadn't been tackled in TMA, the gangster stuff of the '30's would've worked with a corrupt police force, bought by the mob. I still say the Baron (or equivalent) and his seat of power could be explored more.