I'M MOVING TO CANADA - TTLG Forums

Yakoob on 30/6/2012 at 04:05

Quote Posted by Muzman

Doesn't that just put you in the bracket for whom this bill really changes nothing? That was most people from memory. If you are really unhappy with your situation and healthy the idea is you drop out and take the 'fine' and save some money. You still get some emergency care (I think) and can opt back in any time.
I get people being mad this reform doesn't do everything, but many seem to say that not changing everything is the same as making things worse which doesn't seem to be the case.

Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.

Sg3 on 30/6/2012 at 04:10

Quote Posted by Yakoob

Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.

This. "Can't get medical service because I can't afford insurance" sucks, but it's better than "can't get medical service because I can't afford insurance and am being fined for not being able to afford insurance," or "can't afford medical service even though I have insurance, because this insurance is worthless because the deductible is so high, but I can't get rid of this worthless money-sink of an insurance policy because I can't afford the fine for not having insurance." See? This "tax" for the poor is actually a move away from socialism and towards unrestricted capitalism, as far as I can tell.

Muzman on 30/6/2012 at 04:28

Quote Posted by Yakoob

Err it is making things worse: it's making me pay money for not getting any benefit from it at all.

Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already? Did the bill actually change that apart from compelling you to do so now?
Seriously, I don't know.
(one thing I have learned from this is the US heathcare/insurance system is an impenetrable morass of shit that makes no sense any way you slice it. This seems like only the first step in a very long line of reforms (that will be fought tooth and nail all the way))

Sg3 on 30/6/2012 at 04:58

Quote Posted by Muzman

Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already? Did the bill actually change that apart from compelling you to do so now?

Even if he's already paying for the high-deductible insurance already, the new law will remove his option to quit it without paying a fine. I think it's pretty self-explanatory that losing the "quit paying for something that doesn't do any good" option is making things worse, not better.

Quote Posted by Muzman

This seems like only the first step in a very long line of reforms (that will be fought tooth and nail all the way)

Given that this new law only helps the already-bloated-with-money insurance companies (which are not much more than highly-successful legalized scammers), and perhaps the richer taxpayers who aren't struggling to afford medicine, I don't see how it could possibly be considered a positive reform. It harms the poor and helps the rich. W.T.F. Well, that's the way of the world--always has been. Always will be. Shit.

Yakoob on 30/6/2012 at 05:13

Quote Posted by Muzman

Where, though? Aren't you paying for the not-great-cover policy already?

No. I don't have health insurance exactly because all the plans will make me pay big premiums while NOT COVERING MY MEDICAL NEEDS AT ALL. And if I go with the government-sponsored plans... I am paying like 30% extra premiums for even LESS coverage (not even a goddamn ordinary doctor visit is covered on them). Fuck that.

After the Health Reform mandate kicsk in 2014, shitty coverage will stay shitty, I will still not be getting health insurance, except I will also have to pay for $600 fine for not voluntarily GIVING AWAY my money away to insurance companies.

Muzman on 30/6/2012 at 05:16

re: further up
The fine for opting out is not more than two percent of your annual income. For that you still get hospital visits and other things (from what I gather). Two percent, for about the same non cover you were getting before, for more presumably (but no building a no-claim bonus or anything I guess) But they can't bar you from the system for not having insurance like they could before, in other words.
That's the idea. You're paying for base government cover. Then there's subsidies and rebates to knock down other insurance costs. There's a lot of low-income benefits to this bill. That was the whole idea; To address the uninsured problem.
Yes entrenched insurance company relationships still apply, but first and foremost they have to lower base costs and force them to take riskier clients again. 100yrs of this stuff can't be removed overnight (unless you have a benevolent absolute dictatorship)

I can see some folks paying a little more at certain margins. I haven't run any numbers or anything. Most people still seem to be bristling over the fine part though, when their taxes probably get changed every year and they don't give a shit.

Muzman on 30/6/2012 at 05:32

Quote Posted by Yakoob

There was talk I saw about how the independent types probably have it the worst. Since most of the country either falls into the work-plan or rich bastard-plan category, they're mostly untouched. While ex students and singles, flexible types, are caught in the middle.
It's tough, but I can see the long term plan (I think). There's a million state v fed obstacles to any major reform. There's no money or political will to set up a public option. You've got to rearrange things a bit to break the cost cycle a little and make room for public health. Someone is going to lose.
These people probably should move to Canada for the socialism, sadly.

CCCToad on 30/6/2012 at 05:39

I have been somewhat amused at all the people talking about moving to Canada over obamacare.

While I will concede that Canada is in many ways a far less statist society than the US (For example, the Canadians are NOT recording every single email, phone call, and text their citizens send), these people have a short memory. Remember when the horrible socialized healthcare of Canada was the American "right"'s big talking point?

Yakoob on 30/6/2012 at 05:41

Muzman , he whole point is, there is NO BASE GOVERNMENT COVER. It's just taking the shitty and unaffordable plans, and FORCING you to pick one.

For 100/month I can have the pleasure of STILL PAYING initial $6000 out of pocket before insurance kicks in, and measly rudimentary 2-3 doctor visits at a 50% copay. For 130/month, I have the pleasure of using the Government-provided Health Savings Account, which still makes me pay initial $6000 of all my medical expenses, AND 100% of the doctor visit fees. It's actually a WORSE DEAL than the already shitty alternative.

In my (and many others) case, this bill only works for emergencies. In which case, why are we pretending it's "universal health care"? It's not.

Christ, how hard is this to get???

Quote Posted by Muzman

re: further up
The fine for opting out is not more than two percent of your annual income.

Or $600, greater of the two.

Quote:

For that you still get hospital visits and other things (from what I gather).*

* After $6000 deductible, with 50% copay. other restrictions may apply.

Nicker on 30/6/2012 at 10:26

It's called the Single Payer system.

The collecting of premiums and the disbursal of funds, along with deciding what types and level of care is provided, is a state responsibility. It's not a perfect system but it means that for less than $80 per month you have access to all manner of life saving and health improving services.

No need to choose between the mortgage and an appendectomy.

Take the money spent on litigation denying the payment of benefits and apply it to actual services. The private insurance companies are robbing you blind. Tell them to fuck off already.