sparhawk on 8/2/2006 at 17:43

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Orbewaver is right on the spot. You can close your eyes, stick fingers in your ears and shout at the top of your lungs "TDS is great! TDS is modable! TDS is configurable!" as much as you want, but that doesn't make it so. And the reference to the "average user" is kind of pointless. It doesn't matter how the average users perceives the configurabillity, because it is the programmers who will do what the average user needs in the end.
Because the average user will bith about this and that, but he wont do much about it, until some dedicated guy comes along (like New Horizon for example) and starts actually working on it.

Personally I don care that much wether it really is configurable or not, because I didn't like the game much and forgot it as soon as I was finished. Which already shows (to me) how good it was. I was merly observing this from a professional point of view.

Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2006 at 00:05

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When comparing "Thief III" to the "other Thiefs", one must understand that the first four things you mentioned meant nothing to Thief I. They were a simple yet atmospherically powerful vehicle for the last two things you mentioned. Which, by the way were the reason those two games are classics. You spent a minute or two in menus and stuff, and hours in the Missions. In Thief III, the menu screens and such are almost an event in themselves. Not to the mention the fact that I could barely spend more than 20 to 30 minutes (immersed) per load screen. Just two different animals.





Again, the guts of the first two games were open-ended superbly designed Missions. They didn't need any fluff.

Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2006 at 01:23

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I sincerely apologise, but Thief III was *not* made by the same people that made Thief I. Not by a long shot. But I see what you are saying, and am prepared to completely drop it.

:)

Rogue Keeper on 9/2/2006 at 10:26

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As if you weren’t doing so.



Good. So you too don’t read what others write, but you don’t hesitate to put things in their mouth. I tire of repeating myself, but sometimes I have no other choice:

„With all T3 gameplay downers, we are lucky it has so many possibilities for re-configuration... I'm not arguing that TDS is perfect, I'm saying that most of the obvious imperfections can be easily repaired.“

Is TDS great? Arguable, depending on personal taste, as it usually is with everything. But overall it had good reviews and MANY fans seem to like it.

Is TDS modable? Indeed, the T3 editing tools have been released and people create levels with them already. Fan made texture packs have been made which can be easily installed over the game installation. And I’m sure more comes in the future.

Is TDS configurable? Of course - what you can’t change in-game, you can edit in CFG files. If you care about it.



„It doesn't matter how the average users perceives the configurabillity?“ Then why we are discussing this issue and who are these games made for in the first place – a minority of programmers or a mass of average users? So you claim that the game is not configurable, BUT in the end it doesn‘t matter, because it’s not a problem for an average user?
And many many computer games under the Sun have tweaking tools and mods made by dedicated people with necessary skills, don’t you think?



Finally, we have reached core of the problem. You didn’t like the game and I did and that’s why I must be wrong. Even the necessity to configure many things and install better textures didn’t disgust the game to me. I’m looking at it from the brighter side and you are a sour grape.


Yes, Dark Project was graphicaly ahead of it’s time when it was released.
Yes, the Thief games didn’t need any patches.
Yes, The Circle and other fansites don‘t offer dozens of fan made improvements for T1&2.
Yes, original DromEd is an extremely user friendly and stable level editor.

Etc.

Rogue Keeper on 9/2/2006 at 16:14

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Since you have used quotation marks, that's supposed to be what I wrote?
What I wrote was : „With all T3 gameplay downers, we are lucky it has so many possibilities for re-configuration. (...) Not all A-class games are so easily adaptable.“

These two statements make a quite different sense if you think about it.

There are dozens of titles, which sucked a lot (whether for technical or gameplay reasons) even after patching and excessive modifying.
Remember Daikatana, Arcanum, Vampire Bloodlines, TES Daggerfall, Pool of Radiance...? Those are better examples - If you don't read game reviews regularly, you won't even hear about most of the worse cases, such market failures they are.
And one “gold” example - Deus Ex Invisible War (ironic, another multi-platform game from the same studio, based on the same engine). Buggy as hell, and extensive tweaking was needed for the game to be at least decently playable on PC. It's good it came out sooner than T3, Ion Storm obviously took a lesson from it's failure and paid more attention to Thief 3. Result? Thief 3 is far from flawless, but it's not such fiasco as DXIW. But then, show me a flawless game...



Doom 3 / Quake / Unreal Tourney games are part of highly popular series, which are at the very top on the chart of moddable games. Do you think comparing Thief series to the above mentioned titles is fair? I don't think so, because they are aimed at different audience, their gameplay is totally different and what's most important - they are continuously evolving multiplayer titles. They are very different from Thief 3, because:
- T3 is focused exclusively on single-player experience of an individual, while popularity of D/Q/U emerges directly from collective online playing and modding scene in framework of their fan communities.
- T3 has been developed as a multi-platform title (PC/XBOX). Console titles usually don't have too many in-game configuration options, because a XBOX is the same hardware for everybody and the devs know exactly what hardware they are developing a game for. Of course they COULD make the PC version which would, but, hahah, who would be spending additional money on that? That's matter of dry economical decisions of the publisher - ‘Can we afford to risk and spend more money on development of the PC version or not?‘ They have decided against additional expenditures and whether we like it or not, they probably had some good reasons. Development of a multiplatform game must be a pretty ungrateful challenge.

85 % (a number I sucked out of my finger) of games are less configurable/moddable than Doom / Quake / Unreal series. Too bad Thief is a game for minor audience. Just the fact that Eidos has decided to make it is like a small miracle. Maybe you have unrealistically high expectations and demands. Then I'm not surprised it's hard to satisfy you.



Again, to be exact, I wrote something diferent : „...They made things as they were expected to, to appeal "bosses above", but they left us many CFG/INI files opened for editation. So we can change almost every feature.“

I didn't suggest it‘s *necessarily* a *deliberate* feature. I am aware the CFGs are a technological feature of the Unreal engine. I've had on my mind that CFGs de facto ARE left open for editation by users and that's the main thing important to me.

So? Isn't it good enough? Maybe T3 wasn't made with in-game configurability as #1 thing on their mind - but if any game has some files open for easy modification, developers can bet that sooner or later someone will modify them for his/her own personal purposes or for convenience of other players. Heritage of the Unreal engine? Excellent! In that case, we are lucky that T3 was built in Unreal engine.

But - would YOU bet that one or more developers didn't have idea like „If the PC Thief community won't like this and that console-like feature, they will surely find a way how to change it in the CFG files. They are smart enough for that.“? Randy Smith was particularly fond of PC Thief community and also I don't think Spector and other devs could be some console chauinists. They just made what they were asked to by Eidos - a multiplatform title.

If you can change number of default features and re-configure the game more to your liking, albeit in a more conplicated way in CFG files and with help of the community, I think it's good luck. Personally I'm lucky just for the fact that some Thief 3 has been made. Maybe you aren't, I don't know.



Because it's a multi-platform title. See above. And more above. Round-a-round we go.

But I'm curious - what great things you are interested in are unnecessarily locked down?
What would you do with them if they weren't?