Rogue Keeper on 13/2/2006 at 16:33
No. He knew it will suck from the beginning. He's seer, Interpreteur Caduca in trousers. And his opinion is it sucks no matter what, because as a good salesman, he promotes his product over product of the competition. Simple enough. That's his right.
Unfortunately it sounds very lame.
He' HAPPY it sucks. That's malicious.
There is no need to make mods of flawless games?
There aren't any mods of good games then?
But you know as well as I do that no game is flawless enough for the fans not to modify it.
New Horizon on 13/2/2006 at 16:48
Quote Posted by BR796164
There is no need to make mods of flawless games?
There aren't any mods of good games then?
What in the hell are you ranting about? There are modifications made upon existing games..yes, but that doesn't usually require the modder to recreate the entire game systems, AI routines, and sound prop. The existing engine already supports this and if the game is good enough,
you build upon it. If the developer gives you the SDK, you can make signifigant additions and changes. No SDK...no signifigant modding ability. Hence, why we can't use T3 for Dark Mod.
Dark Mod is a mod in a totally different engine...why...because there isn't enough access to the Thief 3 engine. If there had been, then there would be
NO NEED to create a Mod outside of the T3 engine. Get it?
ZylonBane on 13/2/2006 at 17:02
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Dark Mod is a mod in a totally different engine...why...because there isn't enough access to the Thief 3 engine. If there had been, then there would be
NO NEED to create a Mod outside of the T3 engine. Get it?
I guess that depends on how you define "enough access". Is there really any question at this point that TDM will end up technically superior to TDS in pretty much every way?
sparhawk on 13/2/2006 at 17:04
Quote Posted by BR796164
I nominate this as one of the most malicious quotes this Thief community has ever seen. It's closely followed by "XBox is still a Windows PC after all."
Thanks for valuing my opinion so highly. :)
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You know well you could start your own project even if T3 was a flawless game.
Of course. But if TDS would have been better, then there would have been no incentive to do so, and I would probably not have found such a great team. After all, I played Thief 1 and 2 for such a long time, but never had the desire to rewrite it from scratch. Maybe this would have changed after some time, as thief now gets really outdated and it doesn't hurt to have a Thief style game with full sourcecode available, but it might not have been such a clear case. :)
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You have whined in this thread quite enough.
Where exactly? I said that I find TDS lacking, and apparently others do also. So it's not even my single opinion, because I share this with many others as well. That there are many others who think otherwise doesn't change this fact. :)
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It's actually a good strategy.
Thx. :)
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Blame the official project to hell where you can, to excuse existence of your own project. Fine, that's your exclusive right, if you think it's the best way. No matter, it still sounds like whining on purpose.
LOL. This is not the only excuse. If I had to excuse it all, that is. After all, I think there nothing to excuse for. :)
Even if there were something to excuse for, I don't work on TDM because I want to appease you. I do it because I want to do this and TDS gave me the initial drive to start it. I had plans all along to make my own game (not neccessarily a THief clone though), but somehow I never got around to it, and TDS made me start. So there came something good out of it for me as well. :)
Quote Posted by BR796164
No. He knew it will suck from the beginning. He's seer, Interpreteur Caduca in trousers.
How do jump to that conclusion? Any links to back this up? My dislike for TDS built over time, and it certainly didn't start until AFTER release of it.
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And his opinion is it sucks no matter what, because as a good salesman, he promotes his product over product of the competition.
Actually I anticipated it, I bought it and I played it. So my dislike is NOT just an opinion based on nothing. If you don't like my dislike of TDS that's fine. It's your opinion. That I don't like TDS is my opinion and shouldn't affect you at all. If you think I try to diss TDS in order to promote TDM you should think again, because this strategy definitely wouldn't work. But even though I work on TDM doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to give an opinion on TDS. If I don't like a game I don't like it, and I also can cite reasons for it. So your blathering seems more like a pissed off fanboy to me, then a real argument.
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He' HAPPY it sucks. That's malicious.
LOL. :)
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But you know as well as I do that no game is flawless enough for the fans not to modify it.
There is a tiny bit of difference between 'modding' as in 'modifying' and 'modding' as in 'total conversion'. Apparently, even though T1/T2 were also not THAT modifiable, it still did well enough to not warrant a total conversion of another engine.
Rogue Keeper on 13/2/2006 at 17:10
Quote Posted by New Horizon
There are modifications made upon existing games..yes, but that doesn't usually require the modder to recreate the entire game systems, AI routines, and sound prop. The existing engine already supports this and if the game is good enough, you build upon it. If the developer gives you the SDK, you can make signifigant additions and changes.
If I understand correctly, that's your take on flawless games?
But if T3 was like that, then automatically:
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Why would anyone bother to start a Thief inspired Mod if the game itself had been flawless? There would have been no need.
Really, why?
New Horizon on 13/2/2006 at 17:36
Quote Posted by BR796164
Really, why?
Perhaps you're misunderstanding the concept of a
Mod vs.
Total conversion Mod. There is a huge difference. In a total conversion...you're usually taking a game and turning it into something completely different. That's what we're doing in Dark Mod.
Dark Mod is a
'Total Conversion' of the Doom 3 engine. What I have been trying to explain to you, is that
if the T3 engine had been good enough, and the fan base
'given' the appropriate tools to fix the problems that exist within it. Then there would have been no NEED for us to completely rewrite the doom engine to make a Thief Style game, we would have been able to
'fix' the existing engine and save ourselves years of work.
I mean, why would anyone want to spend four or five years trying to recreate Thief Style gameplay...unless there was absolutely no other way to do it?
Does it make sense now?
Jashin on 13/2/2006 at 18:10
I guess the bottomline is I enjoyed it. Whether any of you did or not is none of my business :angel:
Making your own mod is probably the right thing compare to acting self-righteous on some forum. You're doing yourself a favor.
jtbalogh on 14/2/2006 at 09:35
Ion Storm must love customers like BR796164. Easy to please.
Rogue Keeper on 14/2/2006 at 10:00
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Perhaps you're misunderstanding the concept of a
Mod vs.
Total conversion Mod. There is a huge difference.
Does it make sense now?
Good. Perhaps you didn't make the difference so obvious. It was as if you were talking about mods in general. So from now on I suggest to clearly differ between "Mods" and "Conversions".
By the way, I showed this topic to an independent person to evaluate.
A programmer. He said it looks like we're arguing about apples and peaches,
while neither side can sufficiently adopt view and needs of the other.
But hey, I told you in the beginning I'm looking at the whole matter from perspective of an average user, right? I am an average user and I clearly told what's important to me - configurability in framework of CFGs is.
Does it make my opinion on a game less valuable?
I don't think so, because one thing I'm sure of : Programmers make commercial games primarily for average users like me.
OrbWeaver:
If the XBOX was really a Windows PC for you in sense "average Windows PC of today", then there would have been no need for necessary technological compromises as in case of T3 and DXIW.
Do you think T3 is PC-like enough? Certainly not. Many technological compromises have been made to adapt the graphics, design and gameplay to console platform. XBOX has - in comparison with current PCs - small and slow RAM, FSB, laughable HDD space, not to mention that vast majority of its users use GAMEPAD to play games on it. You can't patch it that easily, you can't edit and tweak it that easily, you can't install any mods AND conversion.
And let me think about 999 other things you can't do on X-BOX...People usually don't buy X-BOXs (and other gaming consoles) when they are in need for versatile Personal Computers.
Making a multiplatform game is a challenge.
Let's see what Harvey Smith has to say about it:
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(
http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/september03/smith/)
"...Well, one of my favorite things about making games is having an idea and having to fit it into constraints. Like when you have an infinite number of key combinations, I think it tends to lead itself to a sort of a sloppiness on the PC side. When you have a smaller number of keys, you start trying to get clever, so I think working within constraint is definitely the number one thing about making a console game that's different. You have less RAM, you have a smaller processor, you have less keys to play with. Inarguably, working within constraint is the number one creative thing you have to wrap your head around, and technologically too, to make a console game.
Moving from a PC to a console environment, that's been the biggest struggle for us....
The Xbox has a lot of memory for a console. The only difference really that it's brought is that we have two different sets of textures planned, one for the PC that's higher res and one for the Xbox that's lower res. The maps are also split up into smaller chunks for the Xbox, which kind of works out. Like you're walking down the street, you go into the bar, there's a mini map load, and then you're in the bar. It's a console standard.
...
We know that the console is going to be more constraining. We'll work creatively around those. If on the PC I can walk down the street and go into the bar without ever loading the map, but on the Xbox I have to walk down the street, load a map transition to get into the bar, but then the content is exactly the same in both cases -- [then] I'm pretty happy with that as a gamer. That's an example of something that is, I guess you can call it, "watered-down content."
So much for basically "Windows PC".
jtbalogh: I don't suppose you know much about my complex and objective opinion on TDS in the first place.
Balance is needed. The design, portion of cutscenes and music are truly arty and the screenplay is very well written.
Somebody has to defend the good work this game contains and effort which many dedicated people have put into it.
sparhawk on 14/2/2006 at 11:45
Quote Posted by BR796164
If the XBOX was really a Windows PC for you in sense "average Windows PC of today", then there would have been no need for necessary technological compromises as in case of T3 and DXIW.
There are two different aspects on this. If you look at the specs of the XBox then you can easily see that it contains DirectX and other stuff. YOu don't really think that MS imlpemented a complete new set of APIs and named it the same as on Windows, do you? So you could already assume that it is indeed a Windows version, even though it is a limited version because a lot of features are simply not needed (like multiple user management and other stuff). You can also ask MS if you don't believe that the XBox is effectively running a Windows OS. Just like Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP are different Windows system, they are still Windows. In the same sense the XBox IS indeed a Windows as well.
Now to the other aspect. Apparently a PC is not a PC. What does this mean? If look at the specs of the XBox you may notice that it has a slow processor (compared to nowadays CPUs) and it has a rather limited memory. So even though the XBox is a PC and is built with some PC hardware, it still has unique requirements because of the systems limitations. Obviously you can not run the same software without changes on a PC that has a 133MHz and the other has a 3.0GHz CPU. And the same is true for the memory, which are both the biggest bottlenecks.
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Do you think T3 is PC-like enough? Certainly not. Many technological compromises have been made to adapt the graphics, design and gameplay to console platform.
This is another aspect, unrelated to the hardware (or maybe not so obvious). PCs can have mice, keyboards, joysticks, and and and ... Consoles usually have a joystick or a controller and that's it. This also limits design decisions.
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XBOX has - in comparison with current PCs - small and slow RAM, FSB, laughable HDD space, not to mention that vast majority of its users use GAMEPAD to play games on it. You can't patch it that easily, you can't edit and tweak it that easily, you can't install any mods AND conversion.
And let me think about 999 other things you can't do on X-BOX...People usually don't buy X-BOXs (and other gaming consoles) when they are in need for versatile Personal Computers.
Exactly. But this doesn't make the hardware NOT a PC. Just because you can't drag a trailer with a Formula I racing car, doesn't mean that the racing car is NOT a car. It is still a car, but with a different design goal in mind. One is built on speed, on on every day usage and the other to carry heavy goods. That doesn't change the fact though that all of them are cars.
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So much for basically "Windows PC".
You can tout your insufficient knowledge as much as you like, but the XBox is still a Windows PC. :) Guess why Linux ran so easily on the XBox after the protection was cracked. Because the hardware itself IS pretty much a regular PC. Otherwise it would have needed all kind of new hardware drivers to get it running. The challenge was not the strange hardware, it was the protection.
BTW: I wonder how you could jump to the conclusion that the XBox is NOT a Windows PC, from the stuff you quoted. After all, the quotes never mention operating system issues, which one should expect if the operating system were different. It only mentions hardware limitations. It's similar if you would want to port Doom 3 from 2005 to run on the system specs of a PC in 1998.
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jtbalogh: I don't suppose you know much about my complex and objective opinion on TDS in the first place.
Objective: Yes. Complex: ??? hmmm...
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Balance is needed. The design, portion of cutscenes and music are truly arty and the screenplay is very well written.
Yes. :ebil:
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Somebody has to defend the good work this game contains and effort which many dedicated people have put into it.
Then you should lead this person here so we can hear some educated arguments. :)
