Manwe on 16/1/2015 at 23:03
Quote Posted by raph
There is a fundamental difference between trolling and calling for bloody murder.
Yep, and trolling is what Dieudonné does best. He's been at it for over 15 years now. What he specifically said on his facebook page was "I feel like Charlie Coulibaly", which can be interpreted any which way you want. He didn't condone terrorism, he didn't promote violence or call for murder, just that, "I feel like Charlie Coulibaly". It essentially means (and this is his lawyer's line of defense) "you've been treating me like a fucking terrorist for over ten years now, where were all the protests in favor of my freedom of speech ?". People seem to have selective memory or selective indignation when it comes to Dieudonné. Sure the guy's an asshole, but he never actually committed any acts of violence, towards anyone, ever. He's the one who's been the victim, on several occasions, of terrorist attacks by the Jewish Defense League (rightly considered a terrorist group in the US, publicly funded and protected in France, go figure), and several prominent figures in France have openly called for both his (
http://youtu.be/56tPaD-f-Qw?t=26s) beating-up and (
http://youtu.be/HuOp_Paxif4?t=1m26s) murder. So yes, double standards and all that.
Tony_Tarantula on 17/1/2015 at 15:54
"bigotry" is a term that's so overused as to be almost worthless nowadays. Most of the times when people say "bigotry" they really mean "speech which challenges my politically correct assumptions" or "speech that causes me to experience cognitive dissonance".
Specter on 17/1/2015 at 18:41
Overused by being misused. People are very quick to drop the words bigot, racist, and anti-Semitic, to either end a debate or handicap it.
Azaran on 17/1/2015 at 19:20
Quote Posted by Specter
Overused by being misused. People are very quick to drop the words bigot, racist, and anti-Semitic, to either end a debate or handicap it.
It's a milder form of Godwin's law
heywood on 17/1/2015 at 20:08
Or we could just go by dictionary definitions. A few hits for bigotry:
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself
a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Whatever word you want to use, expressing an intolerant or even hateful opinion should not be a criminal offense. I abhor hate speech laws, but it's not my country. From this outsider's perspective, it just looks hypocritical for everyone to make free speech a central rallying point while at the same time rounding up people for exercising it.
faetal on 18/1/2015 at 08:11
Bigotry isn't meaningless. When someone disparages an entire group of people as if they are somehow fungible, then they are bigoted. It's a phrase which is losing its meaning with people who don't like being called out on doing so though.
Tony_Tarantula on 18/1/2015 at 22:28
No, it's a phrase that is losing it's weight it's use is almost always status-posturing. "I just care so much about (insert oppressed group here)..." also can be read as "I am holier than thou."
It's kind of like how the english words "Damn" or "shit" used to carry a lot more impact in the 50's because people generally did not curse in public.
Heck, my cousins are huge "anti-racists" and when they came from out of town to visit me at a restaurant that was near an ethnically diverse neighborhood and I was telling them how this particular part of town is nice and they quietly whispered, "but we notice there are a lot of black people here." I was left speechless because of who was saying these words. These are the far left Obama loving progressives who believe any criticism of Obama is a form of racism. I wanted to call them out because Lord knows they have accused me multiple times of supporting Nazism or slavery in our political debates. They of course live in a lovely all-white suburb where they can preach about helping the underprivileged youths while staying as far away from them as possible.
Specter on 19/1/2015 at 05:13
Quote Posted by faetal
Bigotry isn't meaningless. When someone disparages an entire group of people as if they are somehow fungible, then they are bigoted. It's a phrase which is losing its meaning with people who don't like being called out on doing so though.
So you do not think there are instances where someone is accused of bigotry or anti Semitism as a tactic to end debate?
What would happen in the US if a politician ever criticized the state of Israel for anything whatsoever? Why is it that riots can erupt after the death of a minority, regardless of the circumstances (for example, an individual fleeing from the police after committing a crime is accidentally killed when hiding in a power substation)? The problem is that by quickly using these labels, you (not you Faetal, I use the general you) lessen the seriousness of the instances where racism, bigotry, and anti Semitism actually occur.
faetal on 19/1/2015 at 07:59
The word bigotry is co-opted sure. So are many words, so is loads of other stuff. Doesn't mean that they lose their meaning. I can get how someone who is over-exposed to incorrect usage might think so though. In my experience, most people who complain about political correctness usually do so as a preface to expressing some view that would be considered bigoted to some degree.
